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-   -   Subs with DP/FLEX (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/12673-subs-dp-flex.html)

Dakota Fri Mar 12, 2004 09:15am

ASA or NFHS rules (take your pick).

OK... I've been going around and around in my head about this. Maybe I'm a victim of my own convoluted logic in trying to make up DP/FLEX scenarios to help people think through the options, legalities, etc. But here is the conundrum I'm up against...

Situation: DP is out of the game, and FLEX is playing both offense and defense. A sub is entered for DP/FLEX as the team is taking the field. FLEX player remains on the bench.

Question: Can the sub be designated as the DP playing defense for the FLEX, or does the starting DP have to reenter first?

I can't find anything in the book that would say the DP has to reenter first, but one of our esteemed web blues says she does.

Am I missing it?

And, if I am, what about if the sub enters while the team is on offense?

DaveASA/FED Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:06am

We went through this in our Fed rules clinic last year (Indiana was a trial state last year) and that was brought up. A sub can come in off the bench for the DP. And in you case you subed for the DP and the DP caused the Flex to laeve the game, so she has one reentry (unless already used). And further on that if she had used her re-entry then you could enter a sub for her and reactivate the Flex position. That is something I struggled with as I was thinking after the starting Flex left the game twice the Flex was done. That is not the case, the starting Flex player is done after she leaves the game twice, but the position is still possible to be active if you sub a player in for the starting player.

Duke Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:09am

Let me take a crack at this.
What confuses me is the statement:

"A sub is entered for DP/FLEX as the team is taking the field. FLEX player remains on the bench."

Sub needs to enter either for the DP OR the FLEX. I'll assume that by FLEX remaining on the bench that this sub is coming in for the FLEX. If this is the case then, no, the sub cannot be designated as the DP playing defense for the FLEX because the sub IS the FLEX.

Probably missing something here in the interp of you post.

mick Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:33am

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota

Situation: DP is out of the game, and FLEX is playing both offense and defense. A sub is entered for DP/FLEX as the team is taking the field. FLEX player remains on the bench.

Question: Can the sub be designated as the DP playing defense for the FLEX, or does the starting DP have to reenter first?

I can't find anything in the book that would say the DP has to reenter first, but one of our esteemed web blues says she does.

Am I missing it?

And, if I am, what about if the sub enters while the team is on offense?

Dakota,

<I>Question: Can the sub be designated as the DP playing defense for the FLEX, or does the starting DP have to reenter first?</I>
Sub goes to DP and replaces FLEX on defense.
Flex has now left the game.

<I>What about if the sub enters while the team is on offense?</I>
Sub goes to DP, but then plays defense for FLEX, Flex has left the game.

If, instead, you replaced FLEX (who was playing both ways) with the sub it is merely a straight substitution.

It is when FLEX batted for DP, that DP had left the game.
The original "DP player" may still reenter later.

mick








Dakota Fri Mar 12, 2004 01:20pm

Thanks for the replies. Let me clarify the situation just to be sure the question is being understood. (mick & Dave, I think you understood. Duke, I'm not sure...)

Situation: DP is out of the game, and FLEX is playing both offense and defense. A sub is entered as the team is taking the field. FLEX player remains on the bench. Coach tells PU - "I am entering a sub for the DP; she will also be playing defense for the FLEX."

Question: Is this legal?

My answer, yes, and the starting DP still has her reentry left and the starting FLEX has left the game, with a reentry remaining.

mick Fri Mar 12, 2004 01:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
Thanks for the replies. Let me clarify the situation just to be sure the question is being understood. (mick & Dave, I think you understood. Duke, I'm not sure...)

Situation: DP is out of the game, and FLEX is playing both offense and defense. A sub is entered as the team is taking the field. FLEX player remains on the bench. Coach tells PU - "I am entering a sub for the DP; she will also be playing defense for the FLEX."

Question: Is this legal?

My answer, yes, and the starting DP still has her reentry left and the starting FLEX has left the game, with a reentry remaining.

Perfect!

DaveASA/FED Fri Mar 12, 2004 03:15pm

Sounds good to me!

Duke Fri Mar 12, 2004 03:59pm

Ok got it.

Interesting scenario. Glad you brought it up. Would rather spend a few minutes now going over it then trying to make the call in the heat of the battle.

Yes I woould allow it. DP can still re-enter and FLEX has left game with one re-entry

Steve M Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:38pm

Since we're going over exercises on lineup changes, let me suggest that you have a blank lineup card - put in on the pc & print off as needed. Take each & every change one at a time & do it on the card. Doing that will greatly simplify the picture.

Tom - no, your starting DP does not have to re-enter. DP & Flex are both just another couple of starters with the same re-entry privileges, rights, and limits as every other starter. But you already knew that.

In the game, your lineup card management will be such that you will get the head wanting to make the change to clarify exactly what he wants to do. If legal - sure, coach. If not legal - coach, that's not a legal move. If involving DP and Flex, be very sure to clarify.

mick Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve M
Since we're going over exercises on lineup changes, let me suggest that you have a blank lineup card - put in on the pc & print off as needed. Take each & every change one at a time & do it on the card. Doing that will greatly simplify the picture.

Tom - no, your starting DP does not have to re-enter. DP & Flex are both just another couple of starters with the same re-entry privileges, rights, and limits as every other starter. But you already knew that.

In the game, your lineup card management will be such that you will get the head wanting to make the change to clarify exactly what he wants to do. If legal - sure, coach. If not legal - coach, that's not a legal move. If involving DP and Flex, be very sure to clarify.

Steve M,
May I assume that you propose that as long as the coach's move is legal, we let him go, eventhough it may not be (in our opinion) a good coaching move, ... that we should not coach, or advise, the coaches, unless they specifically ask for help?
mick

Steve M Sat Mar 13, 2004 06:24am

Mick asked:
"May I assume that you propose that as long as the coach's move is legal, we let him go, eventhough it may not be (in our opinion) a good coaching move, ... that we should not coach, or advise, the coaches, unless they specifically ask for help?"

Absolutely. We are not there to coach, teach the coach how to coach, or offer any kind of opinion on whether or not a move is a wise move. But we are there to make sure that we know who is in the game and in what offensive position.

I emphasize in my pre-game with the coaches that I need to know about all changes they make. If they will make sure that I know their changes, I will not allow them to get into trouble by doing something illegal.

Now, if a coach specifically asks for help - I hope the coach is asking if the rules allow him to do something and not for what I would do if I were the coach.

Mrs. Umpire Thu Mar 18, 2004 09:46pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
ASA or NFHS rules (take your pick).

OK... I've been going around and around in my head about this. Maybe I'm a victim of my own convoluted logic in trying to make up DP/FLEX scenarios to help people think through the options, legalities, etc. But here is the conundrum I'm up against...

Situation: DP is out of the game, and FLEX is playing both offense and defense. A sub is entered for DP/FLEX as the team is taking the field. FLEX player remains on the bench.

Question: Can the sub be designated as the DP playing defense for the FLEX, or does the starting DP have to reenter first?
And, if I am, what about if the sub enters while the team is on offense?

I can't find anything in the book that would say the DP has to reenter first, but one of our esteemed web blues says she does.

Am I missing it?

Dp and Flex are two different players. Flex is the #10 spot of the batting order the only time flex can bat is if she takes the Dp spot in the batting order. With either DP or Flex on the bench you then drop to 9 players. You have to start with 10 which is with the Dp and Flex starting. If you don't you can't use the Dp/flex rule. So the substitute has to go in the spot they are subbing for. Remember Dp and Flex are two different player they only occupy the same batting position but are not the same.




Mrs. Umpire Thu Mar 18, 2004 09:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota

Situation: DP is out of the game, and FLEX is playing both offense and defense. A sub is entered for DP/FLEX as the team is taking the field. FLEX player remains on the bench.

Question: Can the sub be designated as the DP playing defense for the FLEX, or does the starting DP have to reenter first?

I can't find anything in the book that would say the DP has to reenter first, but one of our esteemed web blues says she does.

Am I missing it?

And, if I am, what about if the sub enters while the team is on offense?

Dakota,

<I>Question: Can the sub be designated as the DP playing defense for the FLEX, or does the starting DP have to reenter first?</I>
Sub goes to DP and replaces FLEX on defense.
Flex has now left the game.

<I>What about if the sub enters while the team is on offense?</I>
Sub goes to DP, but then plays defense for FLEX, Flex has left the game.

If, instead, you replaced FLEX (who was playing both ways) with the sub it is merely a straight substitution.

It is when FLEX batted for DP, that DP had left the game.
The original "DP player" may still reenter later.

mick








Also you said the Dp was out, not the Flex player. You can put a sub in the for the Dp player. If you pulled the Flex player out of the game who was batting for the Dp you then can put a sub in for the DP.

mick Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mrs. Umpire

Also you said the Dp was out, not the Flex player. You can put a sub in the for the Dp player. If you pulled the Flex player out of the game who was batting for the Dp you then can put a sub in for the DP.


Mrs. Umpire,
I do not doubt
that what you wrote
was very clear
in your mind. ;)

mick

CecilOne Fri Mar 19, 2004 03:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
... snip ... DP is out of the game, and FLEX is playing both offense and defense. A sub is entered as the team is taking the field. FLEX player remains on the bench. Coach tells PU - "I am entering a sub for the DP; she will also be playing defense for the FLEX."

Question: Is this legal?

My answer, yes, and the starting DP still has her reentry left and the starting FLEX has left the game, with a reentry remaining. [/B]
How is this different from what you clarified for me (us?) in the Becca-Charlene thread on this and the other forum?


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