I do ISF but an ASA view is also appreciated!

When do you consider a live ball appeal to be made? When the base is tagged? When the fielder starts to speak it out? When the fielder has verbalized the appeal?

I am not talking about an obvious appeal situation, as a lead on a fly ball and the return after the catch) but about a situation, when the runner tries to correct the base running mistake and defence tries to appeal it. Both the runner and the fielder w/the ball are in the vicinity of the base the mistake occurred.

E.g.:
R1, R3. 2 Out. The Batter hits a ball to right field, R1 rounds 2B and misses it. She stops and tries to return to the base as the defence throws the ball there. R3 reaches home savely.
What has the defence to do to appeal the missed base and nullify the run?

THX

Raoul

Raoul,

This would be a timing play, and if the runner crossed the plate before the appeal, the run would count. If there was a play at second on a missed base as you state, I would consider that as an appeal. It is obvious, the fielders have seen the missed base, and are trying to make the out. If the fielder makes an attempt to tag the runner comming back to second, I would go with the play, but if the fielder is just in contact with the base when they receive the ball and than look to the umpire, I would condiser that an appeal.

@ Del-Blue:
So the time when the fielder tags the bag would be the time you would consider. Fielder tags the base, R1 slides in, Fielder looks at you (or adds something verbaly), That would be ok for the appeal out, right?

Why is this a time play? R1 is in a force situation at 2B, so if he is declared out on the missed base appeal, the run would not count, no matter if R3 has reached home? not?

THX

Raoul

[Edited by mach3 on Feb 25th, 2004 at 05:22 AM]

If I am reading this situation correctly, the out made at second is a force out and the run would not count ( since it was the third out of the inning ). This is assuming that the ball was cleanly caught by either second base or short and base was tagged or runner was tagged before runner reached base. As far as the defense responsibility, no verbal response is necessary here, appeal is assumed on play attempt. Rule 8-7-G applies to the above situation(ASA).

Bob,
Are you saying that ASA does not use the concept of relaxed and unrelaxed action around a missed base?

Roger Greene

In this situation, all the defense has to do is convince me they are making a live ball appeal and not a play on a runner caught off the base. Whatever they do to send the message works. It can be clearly tagging the base and not the runner, etc. OTOH, if they attempt to tag the runner, then they will have to do more to convince me they were making an appeal to get the force call.

And (even though it doesn't matter in this case) if the time of the appeal is important relative to a run scoring, the time of the appeal is either,

a) When the base is tagged if I can see both the play at second and home, or
b) When I loudly declare the out if I can't watch both and my partner is watching home.

That how I see it, anyway.

Good info, Dakota. After re-reading the situation, I see where if the tag is made on the runner caught between second and third, umpire might need some verbal to be sure defense was appealing the missed base and not just catching a runner off base.

For the purpose of allowing/disallowing a run to score, it is based on the action, not the call. Just as an umpire usually verbalizes "strike" while still down and then moves to a set position to give the signal.

If it is obvious the throw was meant as an appeal, the moment the bag is tagged while in possession of the ball is when the appeal is made. That is when I look at the runner at the plate. As the umpire, I'm still going to want to hear a verbal, but I'm not waiting for that to check the position of the runner attempting to score.