Slow pitch.

We know that a batter cannot swing at a pitch that has hit the ground or the plate. 7-5-B says, "If the batter swings at a pitch after the ball hits the ground or plate, it is a ball."

But what if the batter swings at a short pitch, and his bat contacts the ball immediately after the ball has hit the ground (or plate). in other words, he swings at (not after) the pitch and hits the ball on the short hop.

Is this a live ball, as in FP or baseball?

Don't have my book, but I thought I remember reading that once the ball hit the ground in slow pitch it was dead. If I am remembering that correctly then it could not be hit as, if you are sure it hit the ground before the bat, it is dead as soon as it hit the ground.

Let's see how good my memory is!

I believe in slowpitch, once the pitch hits the ground it is a dead ball, so if the batter swings and hits it, dead ball get it back to the pitcher, make sure no one advanced any bases.

You are both correct.

ASA 2003 Rule Book R7 S4 B.

Don't have my rule book here at work, but I say it's a strike, then a dead ball. The swing happened before the ball hit the ground.

Sorry, but there is way too much thinking on this one.

Speaking ASA.

If the pitched ball touches ANYTHING (in flight) other than the bat, it cannot be put into play by the batter. Doesn't make any difference if the ball hops 3 inches, 3 feet or 3 yards, it cannot be put into play by the batter.

It is only a dead ball if it hits the plate or in front of the plate.

It is not a strike.

I'm not talking about a swing that occurs after the ball hits. We know that's to be called a ball.

I'm talking about a pitch that is swung at. The batter swings in an obvious attempt to hit it in the air. He does not see it bounce and then swing. If the batter misses it everyone would see it as a strike. That's a different story. 7-5-A says, "[A ball is called by the umpire] for each legally pitched ball which . . . touches the ground before reaching home plate, or touches home plate, <i>and the batter does not swing.</i> [My emphasis.]

So obviously the batter <i>can</i> legally swing <i>at</i> such a pitch, but he cannot swing <i>after</i> the pitch hits the ground or plate (7-5-B).

I'm still confused.

ASA 7.5.A is FP only!

ASA 7.5.B includes the sentences: Any pitched ball that hits the ground or plate cannot be legally swung at by the batter. If the batter swings at a pitch after the ball hits the ground or plate, it is a ball.

ASA 7.5.A is FP only!

ASA 7.5.B (Slow Pitch Only) includes the sentences: Any pitched ball that hits the ground or plate cannot be legally swung at by the batter. If the batter swings at a pitch after the ball hits the ground or plate, it is a ball.

I mistakenly quoted 7-5-A instead of 7-5-B. However, the part I quoted is identical.

So if the batter swings at a pitch, the pitch hits in front of the plate, and the batter hits it on the short hop, we are to call a ball. I'm not sure I would say the batter swung after the ball hit the ground, but I'll go along with that.

However, by that logic, if the batter swings at a pitch, and we see the ball hit the ground in front of the plate just before the bat misses the ball, we would also call a ball. That's hard to believe, but whether he hits the ball an instant after it touches the ground or misses the ball an instant after it touches the ground should not matter.

Why does ASA use the language "swings at a pitch after the ball hits the ground or plate"? It seems to me they're talking about an obviously late swing that begins after the ball has hit the ground or plate, not an attempt to hit a pitch in flight. We would have to know exactly what "swing" means, and at what instant the batter would be said to have swung.

I really don't want to be a pedant about ASA's wording, but changing "hits" to "has hit" to one sentence might make things clearer: "Any pitched ball that <b><i>has hit</b></i> the ground or plate cannot be legally swung at by the batter.

Speaking USSSA Slo-pitch, the ball is alive when it hits the ground on a pitch, the runners on base can leave the base when the pitch contacts the ground and if the batter swings at the pitch you play the results.

No sir Woodchuck:

USSSA 2004 Rulebook

Rule 7:4:B:effect:

The ball strikes the ground before passing completely across Home Plate, or any part of the plate;

The ball is dead...

I think many on this board would agree that it is a little too late for that claim, Claven! ;)

Skahtboi - I don't have 2004 rules as of yet but my statement is correct according to 2003 USSSA Rules.

<b>I think many on this board would agree that it is a little too late for that claim, Claven!</b>

Probably so. I just wish the rulebook meant what it said, said what it meant, and did not mislead the reader with ambiguities. There's something wrong when a group of experienced umpires, all with a rulebook in their hands, can't agree on how a play should be called.

"Claven"? I give up!

And I still want to know: batter swings and misses, but ball hits plate just before bat reaches ball. Do we call that a ball?

[Edited by greymule on Feb 8th, 2004 at 11:00 PM]

If that swing, in my judgment, was an honest attempt to put the ball into play, I'm calling the strike.

Mike - what if it was not only an honest attempt to hit the ball, but a successful one too? Are you saying that if the ball hit the ground just before an unsuccessful honest attempt to hit the ball, you call a strike, but if the ball hit the ground just before a successful attempt to hit the ball, it's a ball?

I don't have an answer here - but it seems that at the very least these two situations need to be called consistently with each other.

greymule:

What don't you understand by "swing"? If the batter offers at a pitch, it's a SWING.

If the batter swings before the ball hits the ground, it's a legal swing, and a strike if missed. If the ball his the ground before the swing, it's a ball and dead in most books. In SCMAF (Southern California Municipal Athletic Association), the batter is out if he/she swings after the pitch hits the ground.

Cliff Claven was the know-it-all on "Cheers".

Bob

Speaking ASA.

There is far too much conversation over something so simple. Following this thread is harder than reading the player's minds.

Declaring a batter out for hitting a ball that has touched the ground is a 16" ball interference rule. Maybe SCMAF adopted it for all SP, I don't know.

People are talking as if a "swing" is an event that takes long enough to clock with an egg timer. I don't think I've ever seen a swing take much more than 3/4 a second even from the weakest hitter.

If a batter swings at a pitch that just happens to hit the ground, it is a dead ball and strike regardless of the result.

If it is obvious that the batter is attempting to hit the ball on the bounce, or was not actually making an effort to strike the pitch, it should be called a ball unless is passed through the strike zone.

The swing may be quick, but the ball may not be. I think that's the clarification...

Pitch ... bounce.... swing is one scenario.

Pitch ... start swing ... bounce just before the hitting or missing of the ball - this is the scenario in question. Sounds like you (MikeR) are calling strike whether the ball was hit or not here. Don't the rules say it's not? Can you really call it a strike if they hit it, but then not allow the hit to stand?

If it is that close, then if they miss it, they swung before it hit the ground and a strike. If they hit it, they swung before it hit the ground and I am calling a dead ball, ball on the batter and runners go back.

<b>Pitch ... bounce.... swing is one scenario.

Pitch ... start swing ... bounce just before the hitting or missing of the ball - this is the scenario in question.</b>

Thank you, mcrowder. The way the book is worded, it seems clearly to prohibit "pitch . . . bounce . . . swing." In slow pitch, this rule makes a great deal of sense, since some batters could undoubtedly hit such pitches out of the park, and swinging after the bounce would be dangerous.

If the ball bounces on or before the plate, and then the batter swings and hits it, we'll call that a ball and everybody will accept our ruling. You can't swing <i>after</i> the ball hits the ground.

What I'm looking for is a consistent and logical way to call pitch/swing/ground/miss and pitch/swing/ground/hit. And it seems to me that they have to be called the same way. Since both cases represent legitimate but failed attempts to hit the ball properly, maybe the call should be strike.

So Claven is a know-it-all. I am truly sorry if I ever come across that way. It is precisely because I do <i>not</i> know it all that I post on this board. I do seek convincing answers, though.

[Edited by greymule on Feb 9th, 2004 at 08:53 PM]

That was not the manner in which I used the name. It was meant as a humorous response to your use of the word pedant. I believe the was a little smilie face there.

Skahtboi - Go back and read rule 7-4 again, it states "A BALL IS CALLED BY THE UMPIRE on each Pitch not swung at by Batter if:" The batter in USSSA can swing at any pitch that hits the ground before passing the plate and he/she live with the results.

gsf - you said ..."If they hit it, they swung before it hit the ground and I am calling a dead ball, ball on the batter and runners go back."

WHAT?

If they swung before it hit the ground, why are you calling it dead?

To my thinking (and to grey's point), this should be called the exact same way whether the ball is hit or not... the question is: which way.

"Declaring a batter out for hitting a ball that has touched the ground is a 16" ball interference rule."

What rule book? When I played 16" softball in Chicago, where the game originated, there was no such rule.

Bob

The rule was put into place for 16" slow pitch... on a hit and run with a bad pitch, batters would hit the ball after it hits the ground TO PREVENT THE RUNNER FROM BEING PICKED OFF. This rule was put in to prevent that..the batter is declared out.

ASA.

When I played, there was no such thing as a dead ball appeal, composite bats, restricted balls, stealing, double bases, etc. That doesn't mean I dismiss any notion they could presently exist.