When to call the illegal pitch for illegal actions that occur in the early stages of the pitching process.

For example, the following actions are illegal - but they occur prior to the start of the pitch. Stepping on to the plate with both hands together; having the stride foot outside the 24" width; (ASA) starting with the stride foot behind the plate, or steping back with stride foot; (NFHS) stepping back with stride foot after the hands have come together.

Until the hands separate (ASA) or a normal motion after the hand come together (NFHS), the pitcher is still allowed to step back off the plate. Can I assume that the above actions are NOT illegal IF the pitcher steps off the plate?

So would you wait until the start of the pitch to make the call (verbal and DDB signal)? If you made it earlier, and the pitcher stopped and stepped back off the plate, does she negate your call?

WMB

WMB,

The pitch starts when one hand is taken off the ball after the hands
have been placed together. Any illegal actions at this point should
be immediately signaled/called.

"Any illegal actions at this point should
be immediately signaled/called."

Of course. But my question was about illegal actions prior to this point.

Interesting, Whiskers, that 41 people read this post over a period of several hours without an answer until you came along. So I wonder - is my question stupid? Or doesn't anyone have an answer? Come on Dakota.... Mike.... others. Our local NFHS clinic is fast approching and I am trying to get presentation readied.

WMB

I don't think you can call an IP until the pitch starts (ie the separation of hands or the start of the normal pitching motion.) As you said, a lot of that can be done and isn't going to be illegal if they step off the base. So, my vote goes to the wait until it's a pitch, then make the declaration of Illegal Pitch. Otherwise, I think you're gonna have to scramble a little bit to explain what just happened.

Sorry WMB,

I agree with TexBlue....If it is prior to seperation of the
hands, then legall the pitcher could change her mind, set
back and reset. You would have to wait until she has gone as
far as seperating the hands and the pitch has started.
No, it is not a dumb question. I have seen umpires call an
illegal pitch in your situation. Had to explain to the coach.

We recently had this discussion in one of our TASO(NFHS) meeting and the instructor was saying if the illegal action happen before the start of the pitch call it and kill the play before the pitcher started her motion and award. Not sure if this is correct but it is what I heard


Don

Thanks oppool, now we have opposing opinions. So which side are the rest of you on? Call the illegal action immediately, even though the pitcher can legally step off the plate and not pitch? Or wait until the pitch has started and the pitch must be completed?

WMB

While it is true that the pitch starts when the hands separate (ASA) or the windup motion starts (NFHS), some of the mechanics of the pitcher prior to that are regulated.

However, you can't call an illegal pitch until the pitcher has crossed some point of no return to make everything legal again.

None of these are illegal until the pitcher starts the pitch. Why? Because up until then, she may still back off the plate and start over. In fact, stepping back may be her first step to backing off. So, you can't have an itchy trigger finger here.

Yes, if she does so before starting the pitch.

Yes.

You've got some 'splainin' to do, IMO. The pitcher did what was required of her to start over. So, IMO, the call is voided. Expect a visit from the offensive manager.

According to the NFHS Umpires Manual;

"It is essential to be consistent and always extend the left arm straight out to the side (the delayed dead ball signal) as soon as the pitch becomes illegal, and say "illegal."

So, IMO, as soon as you detect an illegal action, you need to signal it. If play stops, then award the ball on the batter (and advance runners if any), and play on. If, as in the originaly scenario, the pitcher then steps back, we would still have an illegal action and subsequent awards.

I disagree with your interpretation of this instruction. It says You are interpreting it as if it said .

Pitcher takes her position with both feet on the plate and hands separated. Pitcher takes signals. Pitcher brings the hands together. Pitcher takes a step back with the stride foot. BANG - you signal DDB and call ILLEGAL. Pitcher takes a step back with the pivot foot, and with both feet off the plate, separates her hands. OOPS - that was legal! Now what?

You need to wait until the pitch becomes illegal, which means there has to be a pitch, which means the hands have to separate after coming together (or wind up starts for NFHS).

Scott,

I have to agree with Tom's interpretation. If you signal
before she is in legal pitching mode and she steps back, are
you going to award a ball and advance any runners that may
be on base?

I might!!! :D

Here is the answer. As soon as the pitcher performs an illegal act such as going to the mouth without wiping, getting dirt or chalk in her hand and going to the ball without wiping or stepping on the rubber with her hands together she has performed an illigal act and it should be called then and awards be made. The pitcher should not be allowed to pitch the ball if it is a situation where your IP call can stop her. If, as in the case of the leap or crow hop the pitch cannot be stopped, you then let the pitch go (while giving the delayed ball signal) and rule after play stops.

Jay Garner
Deputy UIC, Metro Fort Worth ASA

A very authorative answer Jay, but now let me nitpick a little.

(#1) ASA pitcher steps on plate with pivot foot, hands are separated, stride foot is just behind plate. Is she illegal right now? Then she slides her stride foot forward to touch the plate. Is she now legal? Instead of sliding the stride foot forward, suppose she stepped back with her pivot foot. Has she committed an illegal pitch?

(#2) NFHS pitcher steps on plate with pivot foot, hands are separated, stride foot back and outside the 24" plate width. Is she illegal right now? Then she slides her stride foot sidways and is only partially outside the 24" width. Is she now legal. Instead of sliding the stride foot sideways, suppose she stepped back with her pivot foot. Has she committed an illegal pitch?

Real nitpickin. (#3) ASA pitcher with both feet in contact with plate, hands apart, takes signal, brings hands together and steps back with stride foot. Is she illegal right now? As your arm goes out, she steps back with pivot foot and seperates hands, thus legally removing herself from the pitching position. Illegal pitch?
Ooops, Dakota already posted this one. But it fits in my sequence so I'll repeat it here.

Now a real winger. (#4) ASA pitcher with both feet in contact with plate, hands apart, takes signal, brings hands together and raises them together over head, shifts weight back and picks up pivot foot and sets it down in front of the plate. Is she illegal (crow hop) right now? Then stops her motion, steps back with stride foot and follows with pivot foot and separates hands, thus removing herself from pitching position. Did she committ an illegal pitch?

Not trying to fight - really looking for the correct answer.

WMB

Fine, Jay, except all of your examples are stand-alone illegal acts; that is to say, there is nothing the pitcher can do from that point forward to legalize what she has done. She has crossed a point of no return.

However, many (most) of the illegal preliminaries can be "legalized" by backing off and starting over. So long as a pitch is not delivered, there is no illegal pitch due to these acts because, as I said, you can't call an illegal pitch until the pitcher has crossed some point of no return.

Just to give our resident UICs my view to support / correct...

No.There is nothing in the rules about how speedily she brings both feet into contact with the plate. She ain't required to hop on with both feet at the same time.Interesting question. If this is illegal, it is an illegal back off of the plate after taking the pitching position. However, since she never actually took the pitching position (both feet were not on the plate), then I'd say, no, not illegal - just starting over.

No... she can enter the pitching position from the side if she wants. She was never illegal, based on my logic above.

You already have my view on this one. She's legal.

Illegal pitch. There's nothing she can do to undo the illegal step with the pivot foot. The rest of this scenario does not restore legality. But, it is not a crow hop (no push off). Instead it is a violation of ASA Rule 6F-8,

Dakota, I have time to answer yours but not enough for all of WMB's questions. I will get to that later. If she puts foreign substance on the ball nothing she can do (such as stepping back) can make that legal. A pitch does not have to be delivered for that to be illigal. At that point she has committed an illigal act and it should be called. You should not give her time to get on the rubber and step back.

Jay Garner

That's exactly what I said, Jay. To wit...My point was that few (only one, IMO) of WMB's scenarios fit this category that there is nothing the pitcher can do from that point to make herself legal. All of the others, you need to wait until she crosses the point of no return (ASA - separating the hands) to make the call.

Tom,

I think you are correct. As long as she can correct the illegal act, she has every right to. Those acts that are illegal, such as going to the mouth and not wiping, adding a foriegn substance etc.etc.etc.. cannot be corrected, so you have an illegal pitch right than. Other wise, you have to wait until the pitch starts.

<B< <I> Now a real winger. (#4) ASA pitcher with both feet in contact with plate, hands apart, takes signal, brings hands together and raises them together over head, shifts weight back and picks up pivot foot and sets it down in front of the plate. Is she illegal (crow hop) right now? Then stops her motion, steps back with stride foot and follows with pivot foot and separates hands, thus removing herself from pitching position. Did she committ an illegal pitch? </B> </I>

I think the 1st three are covered, but #4 is interesting. ASA Rule 6-3-G, last sentence, states " Raising the (pivot) foot off the pitching plate and returning it to the plate creates a rocking motion and is an illegal act." I'm gonna call it until someone convinces me that isn't the intent of the rule.
http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/sex.gif

[Edited by TexBlue on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 04:18 PM]

Rick,

I think you and I read the description slightly differently.

WMB said she put the pivot foot back down in front of the plate. I took that to mean off the plate in the dirt. I think you took it to mean at the front of the plate, but still on the plate. In that case, I agree with your ruling.

If it was in the dirt, though, I don't think your rule applies - but the one I quoted that she cannot take a step forward does.

Either way, it is an illegal pitch right then and there.