R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, less than 2 outs. R2 steals on the pitch, F2 fire bullet to F4 at 2B. R2 stops, and starts back to 1B, obviously trying to get F4 to chase her and get R1 home from 3B.

F4 throws to F1 in circle; R2 looks at pitcher, and starts slowly back to 1B. One tiny step at a time! You are BU and you have responsibility for R2. What might you do?

1. Allow R1 to continue her merry way back to 1B, ready to call her out if she hesitates a fraction of a second?

2. Call time and order runner(s) back to their bases.

3. Call time and eject R2 for USC?

Or might you select #2, plus give a bench warning about delay of game, USC, etc. and then select #3 the next time it happens in the game?

WMB

WMB,

I choose what is behind door #1. As long as the runner is moving, you have to wait. Nothing in the rule about the speed of the runner.[img]

Ditto, wait for the play to "play itself out" Relax..& enjoy the moment.

I agree with Bob... as long as she is moving, she is OK. However, remember that whether or not she is moving is an umpire judgment! ;)

Include me in this group. No problem as long as there is some continuous motion.

I'd let her return slowly, too. And I'd apply the same criterion to her as to any other returning runner: only an obvious complete stop makes me call her out. I would not be looking to stretch my interpretation of a stop simply to make an out call because I didn't like what she was doing.

Frankly, I'm surprised we don't see more of this kind of thing. I suspect that if many coaches decide to employ such a strategy, ASA will come up with a ruling to deal with it.

This brings up a similar play: the BR who, with runners on let's say 2B and 3B, gets a base on balls and proceeds very slowly to 1B, allowing the two runners ample time to dance around and play games.

Technically, however, a BR or runner could maintain a continuous motion yet proceed so slowly that it would take 10 minutes to get to the next base. Obviously, we can't let that happen. Would that be USC? Or would it be a form of abandonment of effort, since normal effort requires normal, not abnormal, time?

Grey Mule, Thats dangerous territory. For us to use our judgement and say that a players motion was "TOO" slow or "unusually" slow thus we can enforce a rule we like to deter play we don't like. I love the idea but "absolute power corrupts absolutely". I don't want to be an ump exercizing too much of that.

I agree, Chuck Chopper. But obviously there are ways that players can stay within the technical rules and yet make a mockery of the game, and we can't let that happen. In baseball, a pitcher can make endless "pickoff" attempts. At what point do we put a stop to it, and how? We've all seen teams use various tactics to stall in hopes of rain as well. Players can fake injuries, too.

In baseball, I've seen runners overrun 1B by 75 feet and then return ever so slowly, stopping to pull up socks, etc. Do we call an out for failing to return immediately? I once saw an ump do just that.

In games that are run by a clock, there are far fewer opportunities to engage in the sort of thing we've been discussing. As for runners returning inch by inch, at some point we have to assert ourselves and manage the game. Exactly how in that situation, I don't know for sure. I guess it's something to deal with on a case-by-case basis.

when r2 initiates steal play continues regardless of the throw to f1 r2 remains in jeapordy til play ends

Yes, but that's not the question JJC.

I think if the game was timed, I'd show a lot less leniency than what I'm about to say ... but if it's not timed, you simply have to let them play. Eventually - the stupidity will either A) WORK (pitcher loses patience and fires to first), B) BACKFIRE (pitcher fires to first and nails runner), or C) END (coach with stupid tactics finally realizes he's adding nothing to his team's chances of winning).

In a timed game, after the first such incident (either the slow returning runner or the horribly slow base on balls), I might talk to the "offending" coach urging him not to make me call USC for delaying the game unnecessarily (and trying my best to phrase it well!)

Speaking ASA

This probably doesn't happen because the young ladies may not totally understand a slow, continuous motion without some hesitation which the umpire could consider a stop.

Quote:

This brings up a similar play: the BR who, with runners on let's say 2B and 3B, gets a base on balls and proceeds very slowly to 1B, allowing the two runners ample time to dance around and play games.

You know, that plate looks a bit dirty, think I'll clean it. "Time"

Quote:

Technically, however, a BR or runner could maintain a continuous motion yet proceed so slowly that it would take 10 minutes to get to the next base. Obviously, we can't let that happen. Would that be USC? Or would it be a form of abandonment of effort, since normal effort requires normal, not abnormal, time?

There is no "normal effort" requirement in moving to or from a base. Nor is there any rule for abandonment of a base, effort or anything else. Much ado about nothing. Unless the player is actually attempting a steal and moving toward the next base, and if the pitcher is obviously not interested in making a play, take another look at that plate and see how the catcher must have covered it up with dirt ;)

There comes a point when extreme slow motion is seen by any normal person as stopped.

While I won't be looking for a micro-stop in order to get a "gotcha" because they runner is annoying, neither will I be using a laser range finder to measure small increments of movement. The movement must be continuous and in one direction.

If she appears stopped, she's stopped in my judgment.

I agree with everyone, the play continues and you gotta let it go, even in a timed game. Buuuut, like someone said, if it's a very deliberate attempt to stall, call time and explain to the coach what the consequences are if this continues. I was watching a game about 4 years ago, 18-U Gold and the runner rounded 1st with the ball in the circle and a runner on 3rd. The girl rounding 1st kinda leapt into the air, towards 2nd, landed, bent her knees and leapt again towards 2nd. She never stopped the motion and kept progressing towards 2nd. The pitcher was pointing towards the runner and asking the BU if she wasn't out. He never replied, since there was a play going on. Once she got all the way to 2nd, he looked at the pitcher and said No. I agreed with exactly the way he handled it and was glad I wasn't on the field, since it caused quite a discussion with the coaches and the umpire for awhile. Gotta let em play.

Rick

<b>You know, that plate looks a bit dirty, think I'll clean it. "Time"</b>

Before the BR gets to 1B on a base on balls?

greymule,

I was wondering the same. Because as long as there is a
play in progress, we as umpires, should never call time.

I never understood why that change came into effect. In ISF rules the LBR is into effect no matter where the BR is. Why did ASA put it this way?

Raoul

Hey, you guys were looking for a manner in which to handle a particular situation. If there are runners on 2nd & 3rd already, the BR isn't going anywhere beyond 1B. If the catcher is smart, or coached properly, they would never throw the ball back to the pitcher until the BR reaches 1B or requests time for a conference. I'm not suggesting you arbitrarily kill the ball. I would be sure that it was obvious no play was imminent.

What if the BR wants to remove a guard from the ankle/shin, get a jacket, change helmets, etc. prior to advancing to 1B? If a coach helps the BR on with a jacket, puts their hand on her shoulder with a word or two of encouragement and turns her toward 1B, are you going to rule the BR out for being assisted? In this situation, there is no good reason to delay a conference, sweeping of the plate, line-up change, etc. As I said, I'm not suggesting you arbitrarily kill the ball. I would be sure that it was obvious no play was imminent. A little preventive umpiring wouldn't hurt anyone in this situation.

I'll certainly go along with that. With the ball in the circle, no play imminent, and clearly nobody going anywhere, I usually do call time out as a preventive measure, even if runners have not fully returned or advanced to a base.

In such situations (as with BR putting on or adjusting equipment on the way to 1B), the defense can't possibly complain if you call time. All you've done is prevent them from having to think about runners. And the offense obviously can't gripe, either. It doesn't take much experience for an umpire to know when nothing's going to happen.

But once as PU in baseball I had 2 out and a slow runner on 2B. Offense 4 runs down. Ball 4 to BR, who starts walking to 1B. Ball goes back to F1. Runner on 2B goes back to 2B and stands on the bag looking at the right field scoreboard as the next batter starts toward the plate. Defensive coach walks toward the mound and asks for time. I grant it. BU screams, "No time!" The entire park looks at him in wonderment. Two seconds later, BR touches 1B, and BU says, "Now time!"

It's true that few girls will know to maintain a very slow but continuous motion toward a base. In fact, I've never seen it happen. However, I posited that coaches might start teaching either that or the long delay to 1B to keep the LB rule off.

Well, this has been fun; livens up a dull winter day. Looks like most of you feel that you have to let the player go (soooo sloooow) - even though you are annoyed or less than pleased with their antics.

But lets start over again. The original purpose of the LB rule was to eliminate the taunting and game playing by runners off base. Seems like my scenero is getting us back into that area again, though technically within the rules. If this was a H.S. game, how many of you would be willing to invoke 3.3 Bench and Field Conduct?

1.0.3: "A player shall not commit any unsporting act to include, but not limited to, behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play."

PENALTY: "The umpire shall eject the offender from the game, unless the offense is judged to be of a minor nature. Then the umpire may warn the offender and then eject her if she repeats the offense."

WMB

You know, often there is a fine line between USC and "strategy."

I feel that advancing or returning extremely slowly is not in the spirit of fair play. However, the "skunk in the outfield" play, ridiculous as it is, is legal.

ive found that when a player is acting out questionable tactics on the field its usually the result of poor coaching and when u get 2 teams on the same field with the same antics your day lengthens but its to the coach i go posthaste allowing a team to act unfairly on the field or stretch a rule just to stretch it gets my goat chicken? i thought the chicken crossed over cause i was chasing it i love chicken

pops

No disrespect intended, but... http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies...eadscratch.gif http://smilies.crowd9.com/otn/confused/xolconfused.gif http://mindscraps.com/s/otn/ez/pi_question_mark.gif

none taken dakota
play ball

pops

Actually, I believe the chicken crossed the road to see his friend Gregory peck!

pops.

Welcome to the board. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/bigwave.gif

Just a suggestion. Please use punctation marks and
Caps key when posting. Really helps the readers.
Besides, you don't want Bob (bluezebra) jumping all
over you. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-006.gif

Thanks

Well!@#)&%#$%^&*(%#@$%^*&^%$##
My punctuation sure needs some punching up!
And thank you for the welcome.I'll watch my peas and cues from here on out.And i was just learning how to shorten my sentences... Hope i can pick up some interesting rules and regs.I ump mens modified in Cheshire Ct. Lots of fun.
Ill watch a bit for now.

pops

Pops:

Let me echo the welcome. You can watch all you want or you can jump right in whenever you feel the inclination!

Ok folks, how about Rule 4.3.1-d in the 2002 book: A game may be forfeited to the offended team by the umpire when a team persists in tactics designed to delay or shorten the game.

I think that might be worth mentioning to the coach once the gir finally does reach the base, So they might get away with it once, but not a second time.

SamC

P(ints) & Q(uarts)s!

I really wouldn't care, but you're talking about beer, man!

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/cheers.gif

Welcome aboard!http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/newbie.gif

Leave it to Mike to figure that P&Q thing out.

<img src=http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/ernaehrung/food-smiley-015.gif>

2002 rule 8 section 9 k. "Runner is not out when the runner has legally started to advance.The runner may not be stopped by the pitcher receiving the ball while on the pitching plate,or by the pitcher stepping on the plate with the ball in their possession."
I can't see where the runner is allowed a free walk back to the original base on an attempted steal.
Course i can hardly see my feet...

pops

The rule you cite is just a note stating that getting the ball back to the pitcher, and the pitcher stepping on the plate to prepare for the next pitch does not force a runner to stop a legal advance.

As to a free pass back to the original base, no one said it is free. The runner is still in jeopardy, but it is up to the defense to put them out, not the umpire.