What constitutes an "attempt to advance"? Sitch: BR rounds 1B

[teebob21]

12U league play; Class C.

R1 on 3B only; 2 outs; bottom of 7th. BR hits a base hit to CF, runs to and through 1B. F8 misses the cutoff by F4 by a mile and the ball trickles to the infield. BR sees the overthrow, and while still past 1B, alters her path by a step or two as though she will advance to second. She does not advance, and starts walking back to 1B. The ball is fielded by F1 outside the circle, and thrown to F3 who applies the tag while BR is still walking back to 1B in fair territory.

The umpires rule score the run, and 3 outs. Game over. Coach claims she never made an attempt to advance; umpire judgment says otherwise.

Would you guys have ruled an out there as well? (And no, despite what the home parents thought, I did not just "want to get out of there.")

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by teebob21

12U league play; Class C.

R1 on 3B only; 2 outs; bottom of 7th. BR hits a base hit to CF, runs to and through 1B. F8 misses the cutoff by F4 by a mile and the ball trickles to the infield. BR sees the overthrow, and while still past 1B, alters her path by a step or two as though she will advance to second. She does not advance, and starts walking back to 1B. The ball is fielded by F1 outside the circle, and thrown to F3 who applies the tag while BR is still walking back to 1B in fair territory.

The umpires rule score the run, and 3 outs. Game over. Coach claims she never made an attempt to advance; umpire judgment says otherwise.

Would you guys have ruled an out there as well? (And no, despite what the home parents thought, I did not just "want to get out of there.")

You answered your own question.

I've seen it called on a head fake (without objection by the offended coach - not me).

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

You answered your own question.

I've seen it called on a head fake (without objection by the offended coach - not me).

I completely agree. When she made the move to go to second, or give the appearance of going to second, she has made an attempt in my judgement and better get back to 1b before she is tagged, or she will be called out.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

12U league play; Class C.

R1 on 3B only; 2 outs; bottom of 7th. BR hits a base hit to CF, runs to and through 1B. F8 misses the cutoff by F4 by a mile and the ball trickles to the infield. BR sees the overthrow, and while still past 1B, alters her path by a step or two as though she will advance to second. She does not advance, and starts walking back to 1B. The ball is fielded by F1 outside the circle, and thrown to F3 who applies the tag while BR is still walking back to 1B in fair territory.

The umpires rule score the run, and 3 outs. Game over. Coach claims she never made an attempt to advance; umpire judgment says otherwise.

Would you guys have ruled an out there as well? (And no, despite what the home parents thought, I did not just "want to get out of there.")

Besides what Rich bolded, there is a second one ---- umpire judgment.

At the instant she altered her path, your brain or nervous system or just feet reacted/prepared to cover 2nd even if no visible movement.

Reads like an out. My only hesitation would be about class C.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Besides what Rich bolded, there is a second one ---- umpire judgment.

At the instant she altered her path, your brain or nervous system or just feet reacted/prepared to cover 2nd even if no visible movement.

Reads like an out. My only hesitation would be about class C.

Fair enough. I didn't lose a single wink of sleep about calling the out. Class C; G or Q; she moved like she was going to 2. And then she didn't.

And then she got tagged. IMHO, that's an out everywhere.

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Fair enough. I didn't lose a single wink of sleep about calling the out. Class C; G or Q; she moved like she was going to 2. And then she didn't.

And then she got tagged. IMHO, that's an out everywhere.

I'm really glad you didn't lose any sleep over it.

I am pretty sure I was at the game in question, if not this is eerie. Though I was an assistant coach for the home team who would ask the question to try and save my runner, I 1000% agree with the judgement call.

My suggestions on the play in question. This needs to be BU's call. I'm assuming you were PU based on your name and your post. BU was timid and always looking at PU and it was clear to everyone PU made this call, again the right call. BU's lack of confidence hurt the sell of this call.

When the 1BC first asked the question, PU stated "she turned toward 2nd." It does not matter which direction she turned, I would suggest "in my judgement she started to advance to second." After that the only thing to argue is your judgment and that is a short and fruitless argument.

Handled well in the aftermath. I mean what I said, overall, nice job! (Unless the same play ended a different 12U-C game last night.)

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

I'm really glad you didn't lose any sleep over it.

I am pretty sure I was at the game in question, if not this is eerie. Though I was an assistant coach for the home team who would ask the question to try and save my runner, I 1000% agree with the judgement call.

My suggestions on the play in question. This needs to be BU's call. I'm assuming you were PU based on your name and your post. BU was timid and always looking at PU and it was clear to everyone PU made this call, again the right call. BU's lack of confidence hurt the sell of this call.

When the 1BC first asked the question, PU stated "she turned toward 2nd." It does not matter which direction she turned, I would suggest "in my judgement she started to advance to second." After that the only thing to argue is your judgment and that is a short and fruitless argument.

Handled well in the aftermath. I mean what I said, overall, nice job! (Unless the same play ended a different 12U-C game last night.)

I've been spied in the wild!

Agreed that should have been BU's call. She passed on it (missed it, really) so I had to cover for her. Good thing I was trailing up the line. She's new....we post-gamed it. We also postgamed the OBS call that we may have missed for the home team at 1B earlier in the inning.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

When the 1BC first asked the question, PU stated "she turned toward 2nd." It does not matter which direction she turned, I would suggest "in my judgement she started to advance to second."

Good example of why it is always best to use the rule wording.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Good example of why it is always best to use the rule wording.

Too many people think the turning left puts the runner in Jeopardy.

[chapmaja]

Advancing to second.

In my judgement I need to see a step in the direction of second base to indicate the runner is going to second, or I will assume they have just drifted off the line when over running the base and never intended to go to second.

I had this situation in a WrecK league game several years ago (1 Man). Grounder to F4, throw is over F3's head to the fence. BR, in part to avoid F3 ends up going a step or two into the field of play while still running relatively straight towards the foul pole. Ball bounces off the fence back to F3, who runs over and tags BR who has turned around and is walking back to first.

Me: "Safe, no attempt to advance."
F3: That's F#$%ing B.S. You are F#$%ing terrible.
Me: Your gone.
F3: Several more comments using similar language.
Site Supervisor: "Team manager, get him out of here"
F3: I am the F#$%ing manager.
Site Supervisor: The leave.
F3: Several more comments including "I will see you guys in the parking lot after the game."
Site supervisor: So will be, (Pointing to police car in parking lot).
Police Officer (walking to field after hearing yelling) "Do we have a problem?"
F3's team mates: Nope, he's just a hothead who doesn't know the rules. The ump was right.
Me: (smiles) "Batter up".

Funny the game went much better after hothead left. He was the typical softball guy nobody likes on the team but he has talent unlike most of the team, so they put up with him.

[IRISHMAFIA]

When teaching this and asked "how will we know" it was an attempt, my response is if you (umpire) feel the need to move to cover 2B because of something the runner did, it was probably an attempt.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

When teaching this and asked "how will we know" it was an attempt, my response is if you (umpire) feel the need to move to cover 2B because of something the runner did, it was probably an attempt.

Damn. That's a great rule of thumb, at any level. Thanks, Irish.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Damn. That's a great rule of thumb, at any level. Thanks, Irish.

Even without post #3.

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Even without post #3.

Post #3 was good, too. I liked Mike's phrasing as a teaching tool.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by teebob21

Post #3 was good, too. I liked Mike's phrasing as a teaching tool.

'

As cryptic as I am usually, more flowery than Mike.

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