When do you finally eject "that coach" who knows how to toe the line?
 

Apologies in advance for the long post, but this is a game management situation. Sometimes context is not succinct. Imagine, if you will, a game where you have one of "those" coaches. A coach who almost knows the rules, almost knows umpire mechanics, and most importantly, constantly almost crosses the line. I recently had one of those games. (NFHS, for reference)

I like to think I have decent game management. Not great, I will admit, but decent. When is "enough" enough and you send him off? My sitch: HS game, with "that coach". I am BU, 2-man. Coach's team in 3B dugout. No comments were directed at me that I could hear from the dugout; all encounters were face to face.

1st encounter: Coach on offense, R1 on 1B, BR bunts. The throw from F5 to 1B takes F3 across the double bag where she drags a toe across both sides of the double bag for the out. From about 20 feet on a 45 angle with the bag, I point, say "Yes, she got it!" and sell the out signal. R1 advances to 2B. As I jog to C, Coach jogs to meet me. We have the usual back and forth where he wants me to go for help, and I ask him what question he has about the play. What does he think I missed? I tell him I won't ask for help on the touch at 1B as I'm 100% sure on it. He says I was totally out of position (wrong, but irrelevant) and the stereotypical "that's terrible" grumble-grumble. He keeps chirping as he leaves and I tell him that's enough to his back as he walks away, and give a stop sign. Life moves on.

2nd encounter: Steal at 2B, R1 only. Coach on defense. The ball arrives in plenty of time and F6 tags nothing but air. R1 slides past 2B...I have no tag and an overslide, so I delay my call. F6 does not re-apply the tag, so when R1 touches the base I give a routine safe call. Coach jogs out again and asks what I saw. I tell him "No tag." Coach says "And what was your positioning?" I tell him we are not having that debate today. For what it's worth, I had a near-perfect 90 at a distance of 8-10 feet from 2B, and closed to 6 feet on the missed tag/overslide. He walks off, repeating the stereotypical "that's terrible" grumble-grumble. I can live with this. Life goes on, again.

3rd encounter: Coach on defense again; R2 on 2B. Ball is hit to RF/CF gap, and I read the speedy BR as probably going to try for a triple, so I say outside on the SS side. (Whether or not this is lazy 2-man mechanics is another conversation, and not relevant to the play. Yes, I should have busted in, but it would not change the play.) BR goes to 3B as expected, and is there in plenty of time before the throw. I get an easy 90 on the 3B foul line. The ball comes in late, F5 straddling 3B, and tags the BR as she finishes her pop-up slide. This play is 100% routine, and I give no signal since Blind Grandma in the stands could have made that call. UH-OH: here comes Coach jogging out again.

(For purposes of future discussion) Moment #1: I put up the stop sign as he comes out of the dugout and tell him "There wasn't a play - we have nothing to talk about." I'm right by his dugout. He keeps coming.

Moment #2: I say again + stop sign: "Coach, no need to come out on this. I'm not going for help here." He keeps coming. SUPER LATE EDIT: I seriously considered dumping him right here.

Moment #3: He arrives. He says "You aren't going for help on that play? You were right on the line. You can't see the ball from there." I say "Nope." He replies, "I work with USA Softball and I don't know what's wrong with some of you umpires, never going for help." He never questioned the call, or lack of signal. He came out to argue a non-call, of all things. I say nothing. He glares at me and goes back to his bucket.

And finally we arrive at the postgame question: At any moment in this game, should I have ejected? He toed the line quite well, and got under my skin enough for me to post this. Did he walk the fine line well enough to stay in one of your games, or did I miss an opportunity to solve the problem in front of me?

Super late edit #2: I guess you could say I had a "Coach Encounter of the Third Kind". :D

His Second Encounter would have ended with a Restriction to the Dugout. Any more nonsense would have ended with the HC receiving an "E Ticket Ride" to the Locker Room or Bus.

MTD, Sr.

Works with USA softball? I think I know exactly which coach you are talking about. If it is, he has a long history of trying to manipulate umpires and coming out for no reason.

Well, each umpire/individual has a different tolerance level. It is hard to tell how the game and the emotions progressed.

Just reading what was posted, I don't think I'd have an ejection. But maybe if I was having an overall bad day, my trigger might have been a little quicker.

I've not ejected a lot of game participants. I've only tossed 2 guys in the last couple of years for dropping a f-bomb. They weren't even directed at me, but a couple of our leagues have a rule about using bad words and if the umpire hears those magic words, the individual is gone.

Your mileage may vary...

Do they give you a printed list? I resolve that issue simply by not hearing those words

One league does (church league). The other we remind at the plate conference by giving a "profanity warning".

Even though I suffer from hearing loss, if the words are audible, the player has to go. The other team has ears, too, you know?

I'm confused by encounter #1. Why would the DC argue an out call?

#1 & #2 are plays that can often be questioned by coaches, and I expect them to work for their team.

In #3, it probably invites debate when no signal is given, but the "you can't see the ball from there" might have ended his presence.

If a coach is just baiting, or trying to influence the next, a sterner warning might be appropriate.

Saying "I'm not going for help to start with is just giving an opening, especially with that being his criteria about umpires.

As to your post-game question, no one moment was enough, but your reading of the coach's motive might have been enough.

In a coaches allowed to rate umps situation :eek:, I would wonder if the coach really questioned your ability or was just seeing how strong you are. Never know. :rolleyes:

My side question about situation #2... is the no-tag, no-touch, no-call mechanic the same as is required at the plate?

While I've never had it happen out at the bases, I do come up with a firm "NO TAG" immediately, of course staying with the play for a potential overslide.

I don't think the delay (other than the ordinary hesistation-timing we should use) is appropriate other than at the plate...

Why not?

I may be a stickler about this and will likely hear some grumbling from others but a coach that just comes out onto the field without being granted time out is not cool with me. I address that immediately and restrict if it happens again. Just bc a play happened they don’t like does not mean the ball is dead.

You didn’t specifically mention it but it’s just a thought I had.

More to your specific point, I would have warned him on the second act for sure and prob the first. He’s gotta focus on the play and not try to influence calls so much.

And it’s a common saying in basketball: you never regret the T’s you give but almost always regret the ones you didn’t. Sounds like you got that happening right now.

Typo. Good catch. I will fix it.

Yeah...I know this saying. In fact, here I am tonight regretting an an EJ I didn't make in a JC game today. Batter strikes out swinging, spikes the end of the bat into the ground (not hard enough for an equipment misuse ejection though) and says "What the F---!?!". Our conference has a no "audible by fans, coaches, or other players" F-bomb sportsmanship rule, and I wienered out on the player ejection. I only gave a warning, thinking that the comment was quiet enough. Nope: my partner behind the second baseman heard it too, and wondered why I didn't eject. The word + the bat spike should have been automatic and I whiffed on it completely.

Time for a hearing test, maybe. :D

To my point a few replies ago... You're not the only one that might hear the magic word. You heard it just fine, which means you probably don't need a hearing test.

But if your partner heard it, a lot of players, coaches, and fans probably heard it as well.

And I really wouldn't care unless it is specifically directed at an umpire or another participant. I've got more important things to do than be the language police

But we officials are charged with enforcing sportsmanship rules.

Years ago, when I started umpiring (baseball), I worked the local Catholic HS league. We were taught, somewhat facetiously, to say to a kid who cursed, "Son, I don't mind that kind of language, but my partner is a priest, and it really upsets him."

:eek: :eek: :o :eek: :( :o :( :eek: :eek:

One of our umpires that works the HS games actually is a priest. Not catholic, though. I'm not sure what denomination, but he never does attend the Sunday annual meeting because he's "working".

Fortunately, there are a couple of other dates/locations that he can choose to attend.

Yabbut... sometimes, that's what the leagues ask us to do.

Yup. If you accept the job, you accept the requirements of the job.

I accept the job of officiating a softball game, not social behavioral control.

One of our leagues has this wording in their bylaws:

e. If the umpire witnesses a player stating the "F" word, "JC" (in vain) or "God Damn" during the game, the player will be immediately ejected from that game. If the umpire hears something that crosses the line, he will issue a warning to the team and coach. In that case they will be warned one time before a player will be ejected from the game.

Would you choose to simply not work that league or ignore the guidelines given to the umpires who work the game(s)?

To add my 40 percent of a nickel, this is where you lost him and your game. Why would you respond to his back as he is walking away? Do you need to have the last word? Also, you gave the "stop sign" to his back (and therefore didn't see it)?

Now you have created a no win situation. Either he didn't hear you and he is now in your head, or he knows that he can manipulate you. Not to mention that you are now emotionally invested with this guy.

For situation #1, I'm handing this way:
Coach: go for help
Me: are you asking about not contacting the bag or did you think the runner beat the ball? (yes, I ask this questions, I don't waste time by making the coach play the guessing game).
**
coach1: the runner beat the ball
me: sorry coach, that's a judgement play and my partner can't help. Let's play ball (as I go back to my position)
coach2: she didn't get the bag
me: coach, I had a pretty good look at it and I'm sure. I'll ask if you want, but I'm sure ask to what he is going to say.
rationale: I'll give him a quick "ask" because that's what he wanted, but I also let him know it was futile. This also removes him from me and the game continues.
***
Either way, I'm not going to argue with him or have the last word. When he leaves, it's over for me. If he wants to argue, I'll say: "coach, time to play" and leave him. If he continues and starts to approach me, then I have restriction/ejection options.

However, neither time will I give the "stop sign." There is a wonderful discussion about this form of communication on the basketball board, and how the NBA feels about it. I would not have given the signal in the other situations either, as it just sets a bad tone.

Wow. Is that a church league?

I would probably choose to not work that league or tell them up front I'm not their shill.

This is nothing new for me. I've held the same opinion for decades and have never ejected anyone for simple language issues. Do not believe in what people refer to as profanity. If you take offense to a word, that is your issue, not mine.

But that is me and I can appreciate other opinions or beliefs.

I don't disagree, but contend a "stop sign" can be effective and the use of it would depend on the manner in which the coach, or whomever, is approaching me.

I do agree, in the manner of "nothing is absolute." I would say, as a rule, the stop sign is bad. However, there is a time and place, such as "hard charging coach or player" or anything on the extreme end.

Stop sign could work for basketball (actually encouraged in NCAA-W as a warning method prior to T, and it should be seen on camera from my understanding) due to the continuous action.

Yes, I know this has been your consistent view on this for years. My only point on the language issue (which you apparently agree with) is if it is a league rule that the league expects umpires to enforce, then you either enforce the rule or don't take the job.

Rules like this have from time to time appeared in local leagues around here. At one time, it was even the MN rule for ASA JO games. Everyone knew this and expected it to be enforced. Working out an arrangement where a single umpire would not have to enforce it would probably have not ended well if there was a violating coach or team in his game.

Of course, all that probably appears insufferably quaint and/or hypocritical to rough and tumble east-coasters such as you! :D

Yes, it is.

I have taught new umpires that if they felt uncomfortable in the manner in which a coach/player is approaching them to take a step backward (as to not be confused to be taking a challenging stance) and raise their hand and calmly tell them it is close enough.

If the individual stops, drop the hand and carry on with the discussion. If they keep coming and cause you to retreat to avoid contact, it is probably time for them to go.

This is a very stressful situation for a rookie umpire and they need to have an idea of how to handle it. I've never had any negative feedback, but a few positive reactions indicating that the maneuver worked. Only once did it result in an ejection, but the young (18yo) umpire turned it into a positive experience.

Though you don't want to scare the newbies, I believe it is better to prepare them for the inevitable.

I don't know that anyone answered your question. But typically at second and third base when you have a missed tag and a runner who misses the base, one or both players are going to make the immediate correction to fix the mistake, so you won't have to worry about a delayed Safe signal. You just don't want to give a quick Safe call because you could end up following that with an immediate Out call if the fielder makes the subsequent tag before the runner can correct herself. The "Safe, No, Out!" call doesn't look good.

At home plate, that's a different situation because the runner may head to the dugout after oversliding and not touching the plate, and not bother to fix it. So a delayed Safe call provides some closure on the play, because the runner is considered Safe at that point, but is still subject to appeal.

I think an "Out! No, Safe!" when the ball is mishandled is much, much worse. :)

But I understand your point Manny. I'm thinking in terms of a similar situation where F4 fields a grounder (or an offline throw from F2), then reaches for a sweep tag on the runner coming into 2B.

Doesn't it look better to acknowledge the missed tag, and then if there is an overslide (or miss) of the base, sell the subsequent tagout?

No, it doesn't.

The runner is still in jeopardy of being retired when off the base. Additionally, signaling the no tag is taking your focus from the rest of the play. Watch the play until the conclusion and make the call.

IMHO, no. If things happen so quickly in between, you're going to be waving and punching your arms almost simultaneously, and might fall down in the process! :D

I actually had something very similar happen to me in a HS game last week. I'm the BU (two man), and there was a ground ball to F6. Her throw to first was a little off-line. F3 tried to stretch and stay on the bag, so my focus was down on her foot. I saw her lose contact with the bag when she caught the ball, and I started to give my Off the Bag signal. But she had the presence of mind to tag the BR just before the BR touched, and I almost missed it because I was too intent on seeing F3's foot. So I did an "Off the Bag, Point, Call 'Tag', then Punch" mechanic that you won't find in any Umpire Manual. It was awful.

Not to get the last word (respect all of your opinions too much for that), but do you not agree that there is a point before the bag, where the missed tag should be acknowledged?

I think up to now you've been thinking in terms of a quality throw from F2, but a no-tag at the base. In that case, our normal hesitation, until the dust settles, is what avoids the feeling of a double-call.

But an off-line throw from F2, or a grounder, whatever, that causes a missed sweep tag before the bag, I feel calls for a firm "No Tag", and a safe signal.

We're usually the only ones who see that little bit of daylight between glove and runner. If we wait till the subsequent tag on an overslide, ESPECIALLY if the runner gets back in time, DC's gonna want to know why the out wasn't called on the first tag.

I think "no tag" then looks even worse...

I don't think any verbal besides "out" and "safe" are needed; of course with proper timing.
Calling it wrong then correct might need an explanatory word(s).

I don't think we should consider what the coach or player wants or whether we will end up explaining a call afterward.

You have an "off the bag" signal? :)


How about, "On the tag, out" with a nice sell out and a point if you believe it is necessary?

"Off the bag" is a very good mechanic, actually. It is one of the additional signals taught in pro baseball umpire school to help sell a close call. The "off the bag" signal is most often used on a close play where the runner is safe and F3 pulled his (her) foot off the bag to receive the throw. However, in this type of a situation, it would make sense to signal off the bag, and then give the "banger" out signal while indicating the tag.

IMO, a simple point and verbal will suffice. To me, an additional signal is a waste of time and energy.

Last JV of last season - had the bases, and the first batter put a pretty good bunt down, and 1B, who was a great pitcher learning the 1B position , goes to get the throw from F2, and immediately starts feeling for the bag , while looking for the throw. I got into a good 90 degree position to make the call, and F3 is STILL feeling for the bag, and gets the ball, bur BR is safe. Instead of the 'off base' signal, i point in the general area of the bag, and say, "FootneverhadthebagSAFE!" and give a nice big safe signal.

When driving home later on (actually going to my USA game), I reasoned to myself, that since F3 was tapping with her foot all over, my call was a much better description of what had happened, and the point emphasized I was looking right at it. I never have been a big fan of the simple 'off the base' signal, anyways - the point at the area of the bag where whatever happened has always seemed more effective to me....but YMMV...

I think he was saying he messed up; and trying to use too many signals made it worse.

I'll stick with what I said above, but maybe add the off-bag gesture:
I don't think any verbal besides "out" and "safe" are needed; of course with proper timing.
Calling it wrong then correct might need an explanatory word(s).

And I can't imagine ever saying ""FootneverhadthebagSAFE!" "

Rightly or wrongly, I use the following for pulled feet/missed bags after waiting for the entire play to complete:

"No!" + Point
"Off the bag!" + two-arm sweep signal away from the base (not an approved USA mechanic; optional NCAA mechanic)
"Safe!" + Strong, but not sell, safe. All done with measured timing. Not quick, but not slow either. No need for an ump show on a pulled foot.

When they get back to the bag on a close one, it's the opposite. "Yes, on the bag" + point followed by sell out. Never had a problem from observers, and usually coaches don't bother questioning it.

I guess we have reached potato, potaato, , tomato, tomaato. ;) ;) :) :) :cool:

I will NEVER do the "hula swoosh".

I learned that at the first National School I attended in 2008 (?).

One of our instructors was Norm Davis, then the State UIC for Maine and the Region 1 UIC. Norm passed in 2013. He was actually in a wheelchair doing our school.

Anyhoos, someone did the "hula swoosh" while making a call at first base. And boy, did we hear it from Norm! We had to go through the whole line again giving the (then ASA) correct mechanic. Point, "off the base!", safe.

He was a wealth of knowledge...

Maybe I've never been called out on it because I don't do a full Hula Swoosh. My signal is a "push" away from the base, not a giant sweep. (People who have worked with me can let me know if this signal is bigger than I think it is....Andy, I'm looking at you.) Imagine an NFL official signalling no-catch out of bounds on a semi-obvious play...and come to think of it, I've never had this play happen while in front of higher-level USA evaluators.

Another case of one UIC wanting one thing and a different wanting something else. Last national school I went to we were told to give a swoosh signal or whatever you want to call it if the defebder was off the bag. The only difference was, our state staff had initially told us to give the off the bag signal first and then give the safe signal, otherwise they felt it looked like making an excuse for the safe call. National staff told us they wanted the safe signal first and then the off the bag signal and announcement.

Odd that a national camp staff would give you advice on a non-approved signal (tongue firmly in cheek). :D FWIW, any additional signal, whether point or anything else, should be given before the out/safe signal in any case, IMO. I agree that any signal after the out/safe does in fact look like an "excuse" signal. Always finish with a textbook out/safe.

I love how threads diverge on this forum. It speaks to the depth of our avocation. To go back to a comment made on my original situation (missed tag at 2B, followed by an overslide): What is the preferred mechanic here? I waited until the whole play finished before signalling. Anyone prefer a "no-tag" signal (maybe with a point) earlier in the overslide? ... Or does this risk a double-signal safe-out?!

Old School
 

In a recent basketball thread, someone quoted J. Dallas Shirley: "Never say never and never say always."

I've come to regard the "hula swoosh" in the same light as the baseball called strike.

When I see someone do it, I think they must be baseball guys. Depending upon my relationship with said partners, I might ask them about it after the game.

And I think more of a football official :)

Let a continuous play finish until there is a resolution and only then make your call. I do not believe you can compare it to the missed plate/missed tag mechanics (assuming that lack of continuous action) as once that runner scores, they are no longer a runner and an appeal is required, live or dead.

This didn't use to happen, but has devolved over the years. IMO, many more "instructors" have been carrying personal preference into the clinics and tournaments as opposed to the prescribed mechanics.

And I'm still checking the manual for an "off the bag" signal :)

I see your smilie. But if anyone is wondering about the actual wording in the manual, it's this:

c. After obtaining your angle on the play at 1B and there is a possible
pulled foot, move with the play to keep an unobstructed view. A
slight adjustment can put you in a better position to see the foot off
the base. If the fielder pulls their foot, point with your left hand and
say “OFF THE BASE” and give a strong “safe” signal and a clear
“SAFE” call.

No "hula swoosh" need apply... :rolleyes:

I can't believe this thread is making me come out of lurking mode.:eek:

Everyone is safe until I called them out. Safe means they still have a possibility of being out (stepping/falling off the bag) so i delay it slightly longer than my out call (which I am sure of when I make it).

I had a habit (from the 80s) where I would shake my head "no" during swipe tags that missed, but I didn't do safe calls until the runner holds the bag (even the continuous tagging by the fielder to an unbalanced runner - unless pushed off).

I also visit Hawaii but I don't dance. I will give a small sweep to help "sell" that I know exactly what happened so I am clear to coaches and fans who can't hear what I say during crowd roars.

"Hula Swoosher!" :D

Does anyone also have a GESTURE for "runner beat it"; the other way of being safe? ;)

I remember that you had a couple of these calls this past weekend, but I don't recall any signals or gestures that I thought were concerning. I actually remember you using the point, but don't recall anything else.

BREAKING NEWS!

Teebob gets the point.

??? What are you saying?

Edit: Ah. [golfclap] Well played. Excellent pun, sir.