NCAA Softball 2 Out indicator
 

I'm new to NCAA Softball so be gentle. :)
What is the purpose of using the two out indicator communication between umpires?
Pg. 62 of the CCA manual has a picture. States the signal is used with two outs and no runners on second or first.

The idea behind the new 2-out indicator is to communicate between umpires that we have two outs, and a time play is not likely, e.g. no runners or R3 only. Frankly, I don't know why this was needed as the time-play signal (tap wrist with two fingers) serves both purposes AND reminds us to be alert for time plays.

Thanks TeeBob21, makes sense and I agree, why is it needed.
Appreciate the feedback!

I don't do NCAA, but is a runner on third only indicated by "R3"?

No, not officially. Edit: yes. I prefer that shorthand for all case plays, even though it is not standard usage across all codes. Thanks to Crabby Bob for reminding me to go look in the manual.

Yes, for example, see the CCA manual page 66.

It’s the new leadership’s way of reverting softball umpiring back to its baseball counterparts, according to some. I was taught that indicator when I first started umpiring in LL baseball. Same with the “point to the sky” on the Infield Fly, and the change to get to as close as 3’ on a tag play.

Any time the number of outs and active runners add up to 3, there is the possibility of a timing play.

bases loaded, no outs... you're absolutely right.

This is why I keep coming here - this forum makes me a better umpire. This comment thread, specifically, made me more aware on the field in a recent juco game: 8th inning, tiebreaker time. The visitors scored 2 in the top of the inning, leading 6-4 or something like that. The home team loaded the bases with one out. Either team could win the game on the very next pitch.

As PU, I made sure to communicate with my partner that we needed to watch for time plays even with 1 out, since the game-winning runner was on base. He couldn't hear me from behind the shortstop without me yelling, so I signaled a "1" with my finger, then pointed to my head and gave a time-play tap-the-watch signal. I did it twice so he knew that I knew there was one out, not two.

Luckily, I had an attentive and aware partner, who gave me a nod on the field, echoed the time-play signal, and told me in postgame that he knew what I was signalling, given the game situation.

So do some or all softball codes signal time play when any of the conditions are met or only when the conditions are met with a game ending situation? Do you signal it with 2 outs and R1? As to @teebob21 signal, what does your BU do differently when that signal is given?

I've never seen it in any manual saying to do what I did. I did it because I thought it was the right time to make sure the crew was on the same page. With R1 and 2 outs, we'd give the signal as a matter of routine.

As far as what does BU do differently in a game-winning time-play scenario vs. a "regular" one, I don't know. In those scenarios, we still have the same responsibilities as we do on every pitch. One thing I might do if I was BU in that scenario would be to try to sneak a super fast peek in the direction of home if we were going to have a potential tag play. Not long enough to lose focus of my responsibilities, and not to take over my partner's call, but just a peek to know he was at least watching and our time-play call will be credible.

There at no such signals in USA or NFHS. Just mental pre-pitch.

With the exception of a possible rotation in a 3/4 umpire system, why would anyone other than the PU need to be aware of this situation?

For the same reason base umpires should be aware of the count on every pitch, IMO. Each official should be aware of what the game situation is, even if they don't have any responsibility whatsoever for that potential call.

Two umpire system, two outs, R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st. B5 singles to left center; as R1 will appear to score, F7 throws directly to 3rd to make a play on advancing R2.

With no "play" at home, PU moves from the holding zone up to 3rd to make the call, as BU picks up trailing BR. R1 is coasting home (with no play being made), as PU rings out R2 at 3rd. Did the run score?

PU has his back to the plate making the call at 3rd. We are all hoping BU realizes there is a timing play here and can make that call (run scored or did not); I see no downside to a prepitch signal that reminds BU this might depend on him paying attention outside his immediate calling area!!

With two outs and RISP wouldn't the time play signal be given in SB? In BB it would and PU would not leave HP. But would you give a time play signal for every combination of runners and outs that would apply?

Okay, what is BU's mechanics on this play?

The time play signal is supposed to be given in NCAA play with two outs anytime a runner is on (2 man). Speaking ASA/NFHS, the time play signal isn't even an official thing. This isn't baseball, so the PU responsibilities don't change: we've still got primary coverage on the play at 3B on the first throw from the outfield in all codes.

We don't typically give the signal unless there are two outs (NCAA), but I did it in as in the post above because, as I said, either team could potentially win on any given pitch.

IMO, same as always but with a reminder to keep his head on a swivel. Steve's scenario presents yet another example of where by-the-book 2-man mechanics can't cover everything, no matter which manual one might be following on the field.

I had a similar play in an ASA game a couple of years ago in a slow pitch championship game. We were in the bottom of the 11th inning with 1 out and bases loaded. I was on the bases. The batter hit a fly ball to F7 who was not very deep. All runners were tagging up.

I started coming inside and watched R2 tag at second. I really paid no attention to R3 on first. PU started coming up the line a bit to view the catch. When he noticed that F7 was going to throw to third base instead of home, he moved right up the line for the play at third trying to retire R2.

At that point I realized that I had to watch R1 from third to see if he made it home before an out was recorded at third base. It turned out the PU called R2 safe at third, so the issue was moot.

I was coming inside, but I was still what I considered a long way from HP in the event I needed to make a call on a run scoring or not.

Glad it didn't come to that. I'm sure there would have been a lot of "discussion".

In retrospect, I wondered why R2 kept trying to advance to third. Had he been thrown out, the run might not have scored. He could have drawn a throw and stopped while the winning run crossed the plate. The only possible reversal of that run scoring would be if R1 left early.

Might want to check your USA umpire manual.

Where? :confused:

I was thinking the same thing. Not sure what Irish is suggesting that I review...

Read the post I cited and then check to see what the USA umpire's manual has for 1st & 2nd with two outs assigned responsibility and see if Teebob's comment is true.

Yeah, this is a pop quiz :)

Ok, I'll bite:
Correct, not listed in official signals (pp 30 -36)


Responsibilities do not change with the number of outs, as mechanics are listed by runners on base without the number of outs as a qualifier.

Mostly correct. - PU has primary coverage on "lead runner at 3rd." Where I rate this as "mostly" is the choice to use "first throw." The first throw could be the "last runner" into third which belongs to BU.

Unless you are looking at a different page than 68-69 (FP) or 78 (SP), he is correct (with slight wording modification).

The lead runner wasn't going to 3rd, was she?

Yes, seems to be a "hole" in the mechanic. However, the BU's "last runner" statement makes the "middle" runner (the runner starting on first base) belonging to the PU, unless:

Which is why I've always been taught that an initial play at 3B on the first throw from the outfield belongs to the PU, unless that play is made on the B/R.

There are four times, after the ball has been batted that a base
umpire will make a call at 3B:
1. On the Batter-Runner on a triple with no runners on base.
2. On the last runner into 3B.
3. On a lone runner on a fly ball advancement.
4. On any return throw from the plate area or cut-off by a player.

Yeah, never cared for this set of absolutes. I am a believer in prioritizing when necessary. I preferred the previous regime's mechanic that the PU has the lead runner and the BU has the rest. That demonstrated the importance they placed on runner closest to the plate.

That said, the field isn't that big for this to be that much of an issue.

I think these are wonderful guidelines. Not sure how "previous" you want to get, but these guidelines have been around as long as I have, and I wore an Elbeco for many years.

You say: "prioritizing when necessary" is exactly the point of the fourth guideline. Both PU and BU have to read the throw - does it go to third, does it go home or does it get cut - and then read the play from there. What this prevents is a PU who get so focused on the run scoring that a BU is now stranded. Not to mention the dimensions of the slow pitch field are bigger now (for the typical SP umpire - yes, I know the major/super level was always larger).

When doing slow-pitch games, I usually pre-game this coverage with my partner that PU will take the runner into third while BU takes the tag up at second.

On a line drive to an outfielder, it's tough for a BU to get from "B" to cover third base. The umpire would almost always be trailing the runner and not have the best angle (not to mention distance).

At least PU can work for a superior angle. Unless it's a ball down the RF line which the PU has to hang for fair/foul and catch/no catch. But that would be similar to what the PU would have to do if it was a one ump game.

Yep, and I still have some in my closet

I've worked 80' fields and yes, it takes some adjustment, but is not that bad once it kicks in how far you need to go.

I am referring to prioritizing the runners.

The PU should be focused on the lead runner and the ball. As long as there is the possibility of a play at the plate, the PU must keep a position that will allow him to make that call and the BU must be available to make a call involving any other runner. Even if the PU does head down to 3rd for a call, he cannot just drop the responsibility of the lead runner and must turn his head and look to the plate on an out call as that runner is the most important on the field at that time. Like I said, don't care much for absolutes in this mechanic.

Actually, no. You read the play, which involves two runners and a throw.

Mike, you are dangerously close to a "third world, what if" (well, sort of).

Yes, prioritizing the play -- that's what the mechanic is all about. You use the HOLDING ZONE to read the play and then react to the throw. The HZ is defined as the area about half way (notice the "about", so there isn't an absolute distance). A good PU will read runners coming home and outfielders throwing home, thus PU will not go that far into the HZ, stay at home and then react to the play. On a play where the runner scores easily and the throw is to third, PU needs to get "further" into the HZ and cover the "non-last" runner into third.

Pretty solid guidelines, and not see how this is absolute. If PU is unsure of the throw, PU needs to communicate the BU where he is.

My emphasis on your play: you are trying to say that PU goes to third -ON THE THROW- and then there is a snap throw and/or play at home? Even with me (yes me, with all the speed of an aging Sid Bream) rounding third and heading home is that even a remote possibility. PU goes to third because there is no play being made on the runner coming home and a play at third.

To me the problem arises when PU "stay home" with the runner scoring "because I have to watch the runner" (I say with my usual snark) and not go to third on the throw.

At the risk of assuming I know Mike's mind...

I think he's addressing the main point of the topic (the timing play).
Once PU sees the play won't be at HP, his mechanic is to cover the play at 3B, then to see the crossing of the plate, and make the Timing call himself.

(please god let me be right)

Unfortunately, that's not the mechanic. The plate umpire uses the HZ and reads the play, which could be 1) lead runner into home (1a: ball is cut and/or thrown to plate and play is made on "middle runner" or BR, which is covered by BU at any base); 2) "middle runner" into 3rd (considering: with two out, PU would need to cover this play and then make a determination of the timing at home); 3) "middle runner" at home.

As Mike said: "prioritize" but I will add "read the play." There is no automatic "stay at home" or "go to third" at any time. Mike's point was about "absolutes," which I certainly do not see here. I see primary responsibilities and then adjusting to the play.

Actually, I said prioritize the runner, not the play though you may consider them the same.

Personally, I'd rather see the BU handle R2 & BR with the PU staying ahead of the lead runner. IMO, and I know it doesn't coincide with the official mechanics, that lead runner is the most important runner on the basepaths.