obstruction case play

[CecilOne]

We "discussed" this last June, but I still have some uncertainty about the base awards. I will post the two questions separately, but here is the play.

Play: R1 is on 1B with two outs. B4 hits the ball to the outfield and it rolls past the outfielders to the fence.

R1 rounds 2B and is obstructed by F6 and goes down to the ground unable to resume running the bases. Obstruction was called.

B4 passes R1 and is thrown out at the plate for the third out. No ruling was made until the out was made at the plate.

Ruling: When R1 was obstructed the umpire would signal delayed dead ball. There are two possible rulings.

Please only respond to the following posts, not this one, to be clear about the two sets of possibilities.

USA RULES !

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EDIT 12/28 10:02
I should have identified the source as Plays and Clarifications from March 2016.

The "One" and "Two" are the USA(ASA) rulings in the same source.

[CecilOne]

• One: If R1 is passed before the umpire can signal dead ball due to an injured player, then once B4 passed R1 time should have been called since this was now the third out. Rule 8, Section 7D Effect 2. We should then enforce the obstruction and award the bases the runner and batter-runner would have reached had there been no obstruction.

Awards after all is over.
B4 passing R1 is ignored as a result if the obstruction.

I read the play above as R1 would have reached home (as B4 almost did).
R1 should be awarded home.
After the passing of R1, B4 was out at the plate and should remain out.

But, can the umpire judge that B4 was only out at home because of avoiding R1 and therefore should be awarded home?

USA RULES !
Your opinion?

[CecilOne]

• Two: If the umpire determined R1 was injured and, in the umpire’s judgement, requires immediate attention prior to B4 passing the runner, the umpire should have called Dead Ball and awarded the injured player and all other runners the base they would have reached in their judgement. Rule 4, Section 10.

Awards after all is over.
B4 passing R1 is ignored as a result of the obstruction.

If play is stopped while B4 is still running but no play at the plate for evidence, then the award has to be purely judgement of the umpire.

It seems either home or 3rd could be judged for R1, 3rd or 2nd for B4.

USA RULES !
Your opinion?

[josephrt1]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

• Two: If the umpire determined R1 was injured and, in the umpire’s judgement, requires immediate attention prior to B4 passing the runner, the umpire should have called Dead Ball and awarded the injured player and all other runners the base they would have reached in their judgement. Rule 4, Section 10.

Awards after all is over.
B4 passing R1 is ignored as a result of the obstruction.

If play is stopped while B4 is still running but no play at the plate for evidence, then the award has to be purely judgement of the umpire. It seems either home or 3rd could be judged for R1, 3rd or 2nd for B4.

USA RULES !
Your opinion?

1. There are 2 things the umpire could have done to correctly handle this play:
a. Call immediate time out to let coaching staff attend to injured player, or
b. Call out and dead ball as soon as B4 passed the downed runner.

2. In either case i would have been counting in my head to see how many seconds it took to get the ball back to the infield. I judge 4 seconds per base. Since runner was down past 2nd, if it took ball 7 or 8 seconds to get back in to the infield, i am awarding her home. If it took 11 or 12 seconds ot get back in, I'm probably awarding both runners home.

It depends on age level & speed of the runners, where both runners where at time of dead ball call. With the injured player, it may still be hard to judge because once you call time for the injury, play is going to slow down. So it becomes judgement but you can help your judgement by watching what happens and semi-timing what is happening.

The 2 correct calls were to call immediate dead ball for the injury or out/dead ball when B4 passed R1. But it was incorrect to have B4 continue to run without a call if she passed R1.

There was a case play i think earlier this year on similar situation. It did state that the runner would be called out for passing the downed runner, but then that would be reversed when awarding placements based on the obstruction.

Am i on track here?

[Tru_in_Blu]

From March, 2016 Rules & Clarifications (virtually identical scenario).

Play: R1 is on 1B with two outs. B4 hits the ball to the outfield and it rolls past the outfielders to the fence. R1 rounds 2B and is obstructed by F6 and goes down to the ground unable to resume running the bases. Obstruction was called. B4 passes R1 and is thrown out at the plate for the third out. No ruling was made until the out was made at the plate.

Ruling: When R1 was obstructed the umpire would signal delayed dead ball. There are two possible rulings.

One: If R1 is passed before the umpire can signal dead ball due to an injured player, then once B4 passed R1 time should have been called since this was now the third out. Rule 8, Section 7D Effect 2. We should then enforce the obstruction and award the bases the runner and batter-runner would have reached had there been no obstruction.
Two: If the umpire determined R1 was injured and, in the umpire’s judgement, requires immediate attention prior to B4 passing the runner, the umpire should have called Dead Ball and awarded the injured player and all other runners the base they would have reached in their judgement. Rule 4, Section 10.


I've only called an immediate dead ball on a play a few times. A couple were the result of the pitcher being hit with a batted ball. The other couple involved plays at the plate. One was a broken leg and the other was a leg ripped open on the corner of the plate. I've seen many collisions on the fields, some pretty spectacular, but never stopped play for those.

So for me, the timing of the obstruction would play into my decision as would if we had turtles or rabbits running the bases, or some of each.

Also, a base umpire coming inside could potentially miss an OBS around second base if his focus was 120 degrees away from that location while watching the BR touch first base.

With a runner down as a result of OBS, as called by either PU or BU, once the runner was passed, I'd have a time out as the third out of the inning has now occurred. Then it would be time to make the base awards. If I were the one to have seen the OBS, I'd tend to think about the awards at that point. If these were teams and players I was familiar with, that would likely factor into an award (see rabbits and turtles above). If not, I'd likely award R1 home and R2 third based on how the scenario was laid out.

[CecilOne]

Sorry, Ted and others, I should have identified the source as Plays and Clarifications from March 2016.

The "One" and "Two" are the USA(ASA) rulings in the same source.

My questions are about the base awards after the play.

[Linknblue]

In the OP I don't think there's a "perfect" answer. Me, I would have called time out as soon as I saw that the down runner was down and injured. Then everything is "my" judgement after that.

[RKBUmp]

Originally Posted by Linknblue

In the OP I don't think there's a "perfect" answer. Me, I would have called time out as soon as I saw that the down runner was down and injured. Then everything is "my" judgement after that.

Base awards after obstruction are always umpire judgement anyway. We are only suppose to call time for injury if we feel immediate assistance is required. As someone else mentioned, I think I have called an immediate dead ball for an injured player twice, and both times it was a pitcher drilled by a line drive. Take that back, 3 times, had a girl break her leg sliding into home (of course rec league with a mandatory slide rule and no play was even being attempted on her.)

[CecilOne]

My question then and still not clearly answered is about umpire latitude. USA Rules.
The difference between one and two is whether B4 passed R1 before or after the umpire judged the injury needed immediate attention.

In the ruling one version of the play, can the umpire judge that B4 was only out at home because of avoiding R1 and therefore should be awarded home?

In the ruling two version of the play, do you agree it seems either home or 3rd could be judged for R1, 3rd or 2nd for B4.

IOW, does an umpire have that much latitude in awarding bases on OBS, without a protest upheld?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

My question then and still not clearly answered is about umpire latitude. USA Rules.
The difference between one and two is whether B4 passed R1 before or after the umpire judged the injury needed immediate attention.

In the ruling one version of the play, can the umpire judge that B4 was only out at home because of avoiding R1 and therefore should be awarded home?

In the ruling two version of the play, do you agree it seems either home or 3rd could be judged for R1, 3rd or 2nd for B4.

IOW, does an umpire have that much latitude in awarding bases on OBS, without a protest upheld?

"In my judgment..."

Judgment plays are not protestable. I know you know that.

So why the agita?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

"In my judgment..."

Judgment plays are not protestable. I know you know that.

So why the agita?

I was thinking that awarding the wrong base could be misapplication.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I'm thinking that a mis-application could occur on an overthrow if the umpire claimed that it was only 1 base or the infamous "1 & 1" that we hear about on occasion.

If an umpire explained something like that, I'd say a rule was mis-applied. As such, it could be protestable.

But in the event of obstruction, if the umpire judges what bases get awarded, there are no hard and fast "rules" to apply here. That's not to say that an umpire's judgment couldn't be egregiously wrong, but it is still their judgment.

I'm open to other thoughts on this matter.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I'm thinking that a mis-application could occur on an overthrow if the umpire claimed that it was only 1 base or the infamous "1 & 1" that we hear about on occasion.

If an umpire explained something like that, I'd say a rule was mis-applied. As such, it could be protestable.

But in the event of obstruction, if the umpire judges what bases get awarded, there are no hard and fast "rules" to apply here. That's not to say that an umpire's judgment couldn't be egregiously wrong, but it is still their judgment.

I'm open to other thoughts on this matter.

Suppose the umpired judged that in some play the BR would have gotten third because after the obstruction the ball went over the cutoffs head and rolled all the way to the backstop. This is a misapplication of the rule because the rule requires that the judgment be based on what has happened at the time of obstruction not subsequent playing action.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I should clarify a bit more. My overthrow example was meant to be a ball thrown out of bounds.

Hope that helps.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I should clarify a bit more. My overthrow example was meant to be a ball thrown out of bounds.

Hope that helps.

I understood you. What I was saying is that I also think there are times that an obstruction judgment could be protestable. If the umpire bases it on something that clearly happened after the obstruction (and admits it) that should be corrected on protest.