Time of Interference
 

Took an NCAA test last night... answered this one as true:

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B. 1 out. B3 grounds to F6, toss to F5 at 2B, R2 interferes with the throw to 1B. Speedy R1 crosses the plate before the interference occurs. The run counts.

Asked moderator afterward, he said my answer is correct. Runner scored before TOI.

Later, I'm thinking, if R1 is no longer runner closest to home (for purposes of retired runner INT), B3 is. If B3 is the 3rd out, how can any runs score?


Or am I not thinking this through?

The penalty is that runners return to their bases at the time of interference, but the BR is placed on first base safely. You don’t return the BR to the plate to bat if she was still short of first base at the TOI.

So the out on B3 at first base becomes a penalty out after she had legally attained the base. It’s not an out before she reached it. So the run would score.

Do not believe you are overthinking it. Assuming the BR did not reach 1B prior to the INT, no runs should score:

NCAA 2017

6.2.3 No run shall be scored if the third out of an inning is the result of:

6.2.3.1 A batter-runner being called out before reaching first base or any other base runner forced out because of the batter becoming a batter-runner.

R2 interfering with an attempted play on B3/BR at 1st implies that B3/BR had not reached 1st at the TOI.
Is the BR out at the instant of INT? That seems correct, which would mean third out by BR, no run.

Edit for disclaimer: I never answer as NCAA rule.

Manny interp:
That was my rationale.


Irish/Cecil interp:
With 0 outs at the beginning of the play, R1 would score (vs. being returned to 3B).
With 1 out at the beginning of the play, no run would score.

IMO, as a matter of priority, the runner closest to home is ruled out prior to base assignments

12.8.7 When, after being declared out or after scoring, a runner interferes with a defensive player’s opportunity to make a play on another runner.
12.8.8 When a coach, while in the coach’s box, intentionally interferes with a thrown ball or interferes with the defensive team’s opportunity to make a play on a runner. Note: If a thrown ball accidentally touches an offensive coach in foul territory, the ball is live and in play.
12.8.9 When the offensive coach near third base runs in the direction of home plate on or near the baseline while a fielder is attempting to make a play on a batted or thrown ball, and draws a throw to home plate.
EFFECT—(12.8.7 to 12.8.9)—The ball is dead. The runner closest to home plate at the time of the interference shall be declared out. Each runner not forced by the batter-runner must return to the last base legally touched at the time of the interference.

"at the time of the interference " being important. :cool:

I don't do NCAA, either.

But I think the timing of the INT does factor greatly here.

Had the runner not yet touched HP at the time of the INT, that runner would be out. The batter runner would have gained first base, albeit a moot point since the inning would be over. But that runner would have been considered a "left on base".

Since the runner scored prior to the INT, I think the run would count. Now we're looking for the next runner closest to home to call out due to the INT by a retired runner. That runner is now the batter who has reached first base. In this case, run scores there are now 3 outs, and no runners LOB.

Very difficult to reconcile the fact that there is no BR on 1B because she is the 3rd out, and a run is being allowed to score.

p.s. Is TOI not also the rule in the other rulesets?

p.p.s Right now, my only concern is a "Correct!" on my exam. :)

If BR had already reached 1st at TOI (as well as R1 has already reached home), what play has R2 interfered with?? Doesn't there have to be a play on someone to have an interference call?

Well, if there was a play, then BR is ruled out (irrespective of the timing of the announcement) effectively at the TOI, too, along with the dead ball at that instant, making the BR unable to reach the base; and hasn't reached first base safely.

Is this substantially different than the BR missing first base, and that appeal being the resultant third out well after R2 scored?

Unless it was Vickie or John Bennett as moderator, I believe your mod was wrong, too.

Is that a "fact" anywhere besides the test key? :confused:

Is it a bad question, set up to make one point but ignoring another? :eek:
I don't remember my NCAA tests, but that happens all the time on others, especially NFHS.

Also had one where "Batter gets hit with a pickoff throw to 1B while out of the BB, and ball ricochets into DBT. R1 is returned to 1B. This is the correct call."

Um, yes, it's the correct call, but something else happens here too!:)

Does it change anything if we add a runner at 2nd? In that case the BR would be awarded 1st, but I still don't think this run is meant to score.

I think this needs a separate thread, especially after seeing youngump's response

Well, if the bases were loaded, then the out at second base removes the force from R2. So her out for being the closest to home would be a timing play, not a force play.

Yes, but the BR still didn't safely reach first. It seems weird that the runner on second who wasn't involved in the play changes the result. Yet if the reasoning is that the interference out kept the runner going to first from getting there safely, that conclusion would follow.
(On the other hand, if they'd just played on the runner going to third that would be the result.)

The criteria is not whether BR reaches 1B, it's whether the 3rd out is due to a force (or BR not reaching 1B, which, I've learned here, is not a "force" ;) )

The BR gets to 1st safely (award) if the out is R2 from 2nd base as closest to home.

I'm not a college ump (do USA) but I think the NCAA rule book answers your question. (I'm looking at the 2015 NCAA book.)

In section 12.19, page 147, one sentence stands out. "If the batter-runner has not touched first base at the time of the interference, each base runner shall return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch."

In your example of the runner going from 1st to 2nd and after being put out, interferes with the throw to 1st, we have a dead ball. The runner closest to home (runner going from 2nd to 3rd) is now called out for the 3rd out which is not a force out. If the batter-runner had reached 1st before this interference, the run will count. If the batter-runner had NOT reached 1st before this interference then all runners return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch negating the run and putting the runner who crossed home plate back at 3rd base. I read this to mean that even if this was not the 3rd out, the run would still be taken off the board which i don't think anyone was considering (and actually sounds pretty odd).

I think this answers your question. I don't see a similar explanation in the USA book or the 2012 ASA case book, but it would sure help.

That comment addresses the batter-runner interfering with a D3K situation or bunt, most likely with a squeeze play on, which will send the runner from 3B back (even if she had crossed the plate before BR's INT). Doesn't pertain to a retired runner situation.

Ref bolded: The bases were loaded in the second example.

Why do you say that this applies only to a D3K? Look at 12.19. It mentions a lot of different interference types but does not include the one you mention, a D3K. And if you look at 12.19.2.5 it covers the specific situation from the original post. But then someone added the situation of bases loaded instead of just 1st and 3rd at time of the batted ball. So it looks like the line in section 12.19 addresses this situation: "If the batter-runner has not touched first base at the time of the interference, each base runner shall return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch."

There is no mention of a D3K in this section.

Nope, didn't mention only D3K, also mentioned bunt attempt... the Effect is a general explanation of INT penalties, and a list of those who could conceivably commit INT. One of which is the BR.

The next section then goes on to itemize the penalties for each individual player in that list.

Maybe we are starting to go around in circles, but why do you say the statement in 12.19 "If the batter-runner has not touched first base at the time of the interference, each base runner shall return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch." does not apply to a retired runner. It is part of a very broad section dealing with interference and then it is followed up by very specific cases of interference.

The case in the original post is covered by 12.19.2.5, and AR 12.19.2.5 specifically says the run would be taken away for the situation in the original post).

But in the added scenario by Youngump i don't find the exact situation in the rule book. But the general statement about the run not counting if the batter-runner had not reached first base seems to apply. Even if the runner closest to home is called out (runner going from 2nd to 3rd) and this is not a force, it seems the decision to count or not count the run is determined by the position of the batter-runner as stated in 12.19.

If batter-runner has reached first at the time of the interference, count the run. if the batter runner has not reached first, remove the run tally.

What am I missing?