Tangent to passing a runner topic.
 

from the other topic:
"R1 on third decides to go toward home but then retreats to 3rd.
But pitcher picks up ball and looks toward 2nd. R1 then takes off for home, stops, retreats back to third but finally goes all the way home. "

is there a Look Back Rule issue there?
Was the pitcher in the circle when she picked up the ball?
Does "looks toward 2nd" count as a play or fake play, before the throw?

Even if the pitcher was in the circle when picking up the ball, there is still a time when she is considered a fielder in the middle of a play (and not a pitcher in control of the ball in the circle).

Most likely, at this moment, she was a fielder in recovery mode from dropping the fly ball, and not acting as a pitcher with all action stopped.

Cecil you then would need to know if the B/R has reached first base to have a possible look back violation.

The original play is a HTBT play.

Of course, I read it that way. Not sure, but in my tangent, if BR was there.

During all of the original scenario, the pitcher never went into the circle. No look back rule. Most of the time any fielder who had the ball stood with ball in hand and glove hand on hip, and a perplexed look on their face.

I thought you would have mentioned it, which is why my hypothetical needed a separate topic.

By rule, I don't think you can avoid this. There's no exception for until the play ends in the LBR. I don't think the rule was intended this way though and I don't the distinction is going to matter in all but the most unusual of circumstances. The LBR is canceled if the pitcher fakes or makes a play. If she's still acting as a fielder she's almost certainly going to do one of those two things.

The pitcher making a play, or some action that incites a response from the runners does cancel the lookback rule for the moment, it doesnt cancel it permanently for that play. As soon as the pitcher goes back to just simply holding the ball in the circle the lookback rule reactivates.

Yes, but the pitcher isn't going to do that while the play is still on going.

Pitchers fake throws all the time, especially at younger levels. The lookback is off when they fake the throw, as soon as they stop and are no longer feinting a motion to make a play the lookback rule is back in effect.

Agreed. Even if F1 isn't pumping fake throws, if that ball is held in a throwing position, the LBR isn't on.

Unless something has changed recently, raising the arm to a throwing position is considered a play by the pitcher for the purpose of the LBR.

That was the point I was making. "Agreed" was a broad term: I agree that pitchers make fake throws all the time, especially at lower/younger levels.

And my final question was:

"Does "looks toward 2nd" count as a play or fake play, before the throw?"

Let's assume arm not raised. :rolleyes:

HTBT call. A casual look in that direction, no; a quick head jerk around, yes.

The simplest way to determine what counts is to ask yourself if it is remotely reasonable for a runner to react as if threatened. If it is reasonable to react, then it isn't a LBR violation for the runner to react; if there is no reason to consider the runner in jeopardy of a play (fake play), then it isn't a play (fake play).

Players make partial or borderline moves for the sole purpose of getting the runner to react; that's what coaches teach. Look at the intent of the motion/non-motion, and judge accordingly. It's really that simple. And when/if a coach challenges that decision, you respond with "IN MY JUDGMENT".

Well, I guess that depends on your judgment. ;)

Per the USA Softball rule supplement, "any act by the pitcher that, in the umpire's judgment, causes the runner to react is considered making a play." For me, a simple look at the runner isn't enough of an act. But if that look is accompanied by something else, like a quick shoulder turn, that causes the runner to hesitate or turn back, I would say that's enough to turn off the LBR switch.

(Edited to add) Just saw Steve's response after I posted mine. I agree with his assessment.

Both,

Just what I hoped you would say. :cool:

Now the question begs to be asked is what type of reaction would you expect from a runner in contact with a base when the pitcher appears to be making a play? It makes no sense, but then again there are a few things that happen in the youth game that doesn't make sense.

Seems to me, if they truly believed the pitcher was going to attempt a play, the last move would be to move off the base. :)

What about the other runner(s)?

And why would they react if the pitcher wasn't making a play on them? They jump off their base and dance around threatening to advance? Isn't that what the LBR was meant to eliminate?

Pitcher looks toward runner at 2nd, and runner at 3rd (or base coach) reacts as if LBR off.

And if the pitcher than turns and reacts toward that runner, the one at 2B jumps off the base.

Again, isn't that the monkey business that was meant to be stopped by the LBR?

Of course, but there is the provision that the pitcher making or faking a play negates that purpose of calling the runner out, with the "pitcher possession/control".

My original question in the hypothetical OP is whether the pitcher looking at the runner is a "play" or whether there has to be some arm or other body movement. The "But pitcher picks up ball and looks toward 2nd." sentence in the prior topic is what triggered my post.

Many years ago while playing service ball (which came under ASA purview) I seem to recall the look back rule actually requiring the pitcher to look the runner(s) back.

At that time I was an outfielder on the base team and just starting out pitching on my intramural team. So I was clearly not aware of many of the pitching protocols. I learned from game experience. Didn't have a rule book, videos hadn't been invented yet, so anything I could pick up came from player friendly umpires and teammates.