Adding players to a lineup
 

ASA Co-Ed Slow Pitch.

Team A starts with nine players, bats nine.

After the lead-off hitter bats a second time, other A players arrive. A captain wants to add them to the line-up. Umpire forbids this. A captain seeks B captain's consent. Is there anything that may allow this?

USA Rule 4-1-A-2, 4-1-D-2-B & G

The gist of these rules is late arriving roster members may be added to the eligible sub list at any time, that if playing shorthanded and an eligible sub arrives the player must be entered into the empty spot in the lineup, and that co-ed lineup and defensive field position rules must still be followed. (caveat: I don't do slow pitch.)

Dakota is correct, playing under championship rules, a team is allowed to (and must) start short handed if they have one player below the minimum. The blank spot is at the bottom of the line up (or "next to bottom" for co-ed purposes) and must be filled when the person arrives, or that person is ineligible to play.

I stress "championship rules"; I dare believe this was a league game and there are most likely league rules that allow or not allow late arrivals and/or with or without penalty.

Okay, then using this rule set, let's say nine have batted, the 10th hasn't arrived yet, and we go back to the top of the order. (Our league allows three or four women to bat, and the alternating stops when you run out of one gender or the other.) That team is locked in with nine batters, correct? A tenth could not be added to the lineup or the field, correct?

It depends what your local rules say. Under book rules the ninth or tenth spot is a short handed rule out whenever it comes up. When a sub (of correct gender) they fill the open spot. Others who arrive late are just extra subs. There have to be ten spots in batting order even if one is vacant and being called out when due up.

But local league slow pitch rules will modify rule book rules so your mileage may vary. 😎

Local rules are made by fools

No. That's not what he (or the rule) says. They MUST add the 10th (shorthanded) player whenever an appropriate player arrives. No matter how many times you go around.

What they cannot do is add EP's after you start.

Okay, thanks. Follow up: If the team presently has nine, and no tenth player comes to bat, is it an automatic out before the lead-off hitter comes to bat? Can I get a rule citation?

4.1-D.1 Shorthanded Rule

I disagree with that statement to some extent. Local rules are made by people who understand who the majority of players PAYING to play in their league are. The majority of players playing in Recreational Leagues are not going out and playing USA Tourneys on the weekends. They are out to play for 1 or 2 nights per week. The local rules allow some flexibility to allow the games to be played and the participants to get what they PAID for, the chance to participate in the games.

Are some rules over the top stupid? Absolutely, because at some point they do start to mess with the integrity of the game, but some of the rules do exactly what the purpose of the local rule is, getting those who are paying to participate a chance to participate.

It is made very clear at our yearly league clinic. "We are in a business to attract teams. Without teams you, as umpires, don't have games to work."

We had this situation last week in one of the leagues I do. League tourney, first round game. Co-Rec. Both teams are playing with only 9 players (5 males, 4 females). The teams want to agree to not take the out. Our UIC (my partner on the game), rules that even with the agreement we can't void the rule, so each team took an out after the 9th batter.

Local League rules specifically say the out shall be taken, in bold letters.

This stuff happens all the time in coed. You can "add" players to make a complete lineup if they're late. You can't have more men than women unless you take outs where women should bat. Alternate batting is the key always. You can have 5 men and 4 women on the field as long as you get an out for the vacant woman. If you have 5 women and 4 men you don't have to take an out, you have two women batting in a row. Always get the managers to agree on what you are doin. Makes it easier. Our leagues (managers) allow teams to pick up players from other teams to just play games....rules say you can't but they do it. I'm not going to intervene in this situation where managers are in agreement............why would I? Let the rec department deal with roster issues.

This is "Wreck" ball. Anything that makes sense goes. These folks pay their money to play. As long as a team doesn't get an advantage, who cares?

Local "wreck" rules, like Irish said, are written by fools.

I understand who is paying the bills. That doesn't make what they want to do right, nor does it mean as an umpire I would have to work those games. Do you do everything the players and sponsors want? If not, why not? After all, they are paying the bills. :)

The issue is that the local rules are enacted in good faith and seem to be what people want, but the groups making the local rules don't have enough of a grasp of the entire rule book and don't consider how their local rules could interact with other rules in the book. This creates two issues....

1. Teams that do choose to participate in championship play think that their local league rules are "the" rules and will get upset when a ruling is made that is correct by book, but not per the local rules.

2. The teams are playing within their local rules and not learning how to play situational softball within championship rules that could be to their advantage.

I've always maintained that we have a perfectly good rule book that a lot of thought and preparation goes into (speaking USA SB)...why don't we use it instead of trying to change everything?

And the more immediate and more obvious effect is the open holes and ambiguous provisions. The real rule book has enough of those anyway, but the local ones are more likely to occur.

Okay, reviewed this rule today. Here's what I have...

If a team bats nine, and chooses not to take an out for the tenth batter that hasn't arrived yet, they're stuck with nine in the lineup -- and the field -- for the duration of the game.

You got that from 4-1-D.1? :confused:

The team has no choice in recording the out. If they are short handed, by rule every time that spot comes up it is an automatic out.

Based on a local rule, yes. Our league allows a team to bat/field nine, and you don't have to take an out at the bottom of the lineup. However, if you do that, you're locked into playing with nine for the entire game.

The crux is, you can't alter the number in the lineup after it's been established, and it's established once the lead-off spot bats a second time. That's where I'm going with this.

Sounds like you answered your OP.

Can't ask for USA rules if/when local bylaws supplant book rule(s).

So, they can't add a "late" arrival after the 9th bats;
but can use that "late" arrival as a sub at convenience;
but you can add the tenth player (if gender ok) after the game starts, for a while. :eek:


And people struggle with DP/FLEX and pool play! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :)

Right, I was wondering whether there's such a global rule. I guess not.

I appreciate the input, all. Thanks!

Then you didn't get it from 4-1-D.1, did you.

4-1-D.1 is the "global rule" (actually, USA rule), but your league is replacing it with its own rule. Therefore, your questions should be directed to your league.

In our neck of the woods, a lot of teams playing "recreational" ball (USA-sanctioned, but using local rules) during the week are teams that play USSSA tournament ball on the weekends.
So, we deal with local rules that vary from city to city (for example, one city uses "courtesy" foul with 2 strikes, others do not), rules differences between USSSA and USA, etc. And, a lot of the players want to abide by OBR and not softball rules, with lots of arguing centering on rules they "think" they know, but have no understanding of at all.
Add to this the fact that umpires do not review the city local rules, let alone actually read the USA rule book, nor do they have an understanding of game management, and this is a can of worms that explodes on a regular basis.
Thankful I don't do SP any more.

That sounds familiar....

This is exactly why a lot of us avoid "beer-cooler" ball at almost all cost!