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teebob21 Mon Jul 24, 2017 02:50pm

Thoughts, notes, and questions from Nationals
 
I recently returned from my national. Here's my random collection of commentary:

Thoughts:
  • Florida is a wonderful place to visit, but not somewhere I would want to work all the time. The late July rain coming off the coast was quite disruptive, and out of everyone's control. We basically got rained out of our last two days. As an out-of-town umpire, I don't mind the delays. (It is what it is.) The teams did not get everything they'd hoped for, I imagine.
  • As mentioned above, it rained a lot. This is the third year in a row I haven't worked my last assignment at a national, for various reasons. I have the worst luck. :D
  • My roommate was awesome. He was a local, and gifted me some beach sand and shark's teeth to take home for my kids.

Notes:
  • I am so glad I rented a car. While it ate up my entire game fee check, transportation was inconvenient for the umpires without vehicles, especially due to the changes due to rain.
  • While we might not all like the new look, the new USA uniforms are quite slimming. I sent my wife the link to the live stream of my games during a rain delay. She didn't believe it was me until she watched three or four innings. I told her the wide angle lens takes off 20 lbs. She commented positively on the "fat man panel" on the shirts. For what it's worth...we did look good.
  • The new Starter brand "moisture-wicking" Core Tee shirts currently sold at Wal-Mart are crap, unless wicking means "retaining". They were worse than a cotton tee. Even at $6 a shirt: DO NOT BUY.
  • I posted here about an incorrect INT call I made on a force at 2B last year. I had a similar play this year, and did not make the same call on the collision. Unfortunately, this year, the SS suffered a compound tibia-fibula fracture when slid into. That was not pleasant to see and hear from 12 feet away. I hope she gets well soon.

Questions:
  • What is the best course of action at a National when presented with a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" rules moment? For context, my crews twice encountered situations where we felt we needed to enforce the rules as written. The first time was a team with mixed color and style hats/visors...the TD and UIC instructed us to let it go, as the TD had told the team that headgear matching the team colors (red, white, and blue) was OK, so the players wore a bunch of different hats/visors. The other situation was a foreign substance discovered after a new pitcher had thrown for two outs + a runner in the inning.
  • What has happened to the "community" at these events? The past two years, very few umpires have gotten together after games ended for dinner or (for those who enjoy them) adult beverages? That used to be a common thing...but granted, both times I traveled to the East Coast and knew no one. That may have had something to do with it...

IRISHMAFIA Mon Jul 24, 2017 09:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008101)

Questions:
[*]What is the best course of action at a National when presented with a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" rules moment? For context, my crews twice encountered situations where we felt we needed to enforce the rules as written. The first time was a team with mixed color and style hats/visors...the TD and UIC instructed us to let it go, as the TD had told the team that headgear matching the team colors (red, white, and blue) was OK, so the players wore a bunch of different hats/visors.


Always do what the UIC tells you to do. That is their call.

Quote:

The other situation was a foreign substance discovered after a new pitcher had thrown for two outs + a runner in the inning.
What happened there?

Quote:


[*]What has happened to the "community" at these events? The past two years, very few umpires have gotten together after games ended for dinner or (for those who enjoy them) adult beverages? That used to be a common thing...but granted, both times I traveled to the East Coast and knew no one. That may have had something to do with it...
Damn good question, but it is happening everywhere. I used to grill after every tournament, but it got to the point that it ended up being myself and the TD. If I had known there was nothing going on last year, I would have taken you out to a couple of places.

teebob21 Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 1008114)
Always do what the UIC tells you to do. That is their call.

Sure...always do what they tell you. I should have worded this better: What do you do BEFORE they tell you? I always lean towards enforcing the rules as written at these events. It's Championship play, after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 1008114)
What happened there?

Just as it says. We enforced the rule and its effect as written when we discovered the violation. I'm not sure if discussing the entire situation in a public forum is the best course of action.

All that said...I did get to FINALLY watch and evaluate myself for once. I had one nice call, at least: https://youtu.be/vDocZqE_iZs?t=18770, although I should have stepped into the signal to finish it.

Manny A Tue Jul 25, 2017 07:47am

I assume you worked the Gold in Clearwater? I did that four years ago. Your observations are spot-on. I, too, rented a car, primarily so I can find a laundromat to do my stuff. We were in a hotel with some of the teams, and there was no way in hell I was going to try and compete with the team moms for the hotel's services.

It also came in handy when my schedule and the provided transportation did not sync. Our last night's games did not start until after midnight due to weather, and I certainly didn't want to wait around for a ride at 1:30 am to get back to the hotel. Also, since Clearwater had three different venues for fields, I really couldn't leave my gear overnight in the umpire trailers because I was not working in the same park every day. So it was convenient to have the rental to carry my stuff back to the hotel each evening.

If memory serves, we did have a few of our umpires participate in evening get-togethers. That was another benefit of my having a rental car, so I can take a couple of umpires with me to grab some dinner. But I think I did that only once or maybe twice during the tournament. Most nights I was doing laundry or getting back to the hotel late because of the weather delays.

The opening ceremony at the Sheraton Sand Key Resort was pretty good. Don't know if they did the same thing for you guys.

As for the umpiring aspect, I don't know why anyone would feel they need to call the game differently unless directed by the TD. There's no reason to not enforce the rules as written. Those girls and their coaches have played plenty of games to get to the National, so they should know what to expect. Yeah, if there is a lax attitude by the TDs when it comes to things like chinstraps on batting helmets, uniform colors, the one-foot-in-the-box rule, or the "take or simulate taking" rule, that needs to be announced to all the umpires before the games begin. I watched a few of the streaming telecasts, and I noticed a bunch of batters walking away from the box between pitches, and many of the pitchers immediately putting their hands together when they stepped on the plate after referring to their arm bands for signals.

IRISHMAFIA Tue Jul 25, 2017 07:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008115)
Sure...always do what they tell you. I should have worded this better: What do you do BEFORE they tell you? I always lean towards enforcing the rules as written at these events. It's Championship play, after all.

I agree, you cannot be faulted for enforcing the rules.
Quote:


Just as it says. We enforced the rule and its effect as written when we discovered the violation. I'm not sure if discussing the entire situation in a public forum is the best course of action.
Understood, but I certainly hope you were not criticized by someone associated with the tournament for doing your job

Quote:


All that said...I did get to FINALLY watch and evaluate myself for once. I had one nice call, at least: https://youtu.be/vDocZqE_iZs?t=18770, although I should have stepped into the signal to finish it.
Yeah, always square up. Then again, I was wondering where you were going when the ball was hit. :)

ASA/NYSSOBLUE Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008115)
Sure...always do what they tell you. I should have worded this better: What do you do BEFORE they tell you? I always lean towards enforcing the rules as written at these events. It's Championship play, after all.



Just as it says. We enforced the rule and its effect as written when we discovered the violation. I'm not sure if discussing the entire situation in a public forum is the best course of action.

All that said...I did get to FINALLY watch and evaluate myself for once. I had one nice call, at least: https://youtu.be/vDocZqE_iZs?t=18770, although I should have stepped into the signal to finish it.

Am assuming that was you behind the plate - very nice! :)

Scooby Tue Jul 25, 2017 09:07pm

Good call! I was at the 16u. ...Why do you brush off the plate after the 3rd out?

teebob21 Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 1008148)
Good call! I was at the 16u. ...Why do you brush off the plate after the 3rd out?

I was on autopilot a little bit...play at the plate; brush it off. I realized as I was doing it that it was unnecessary.

Rich Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008115)
Sure...always do what they tell you. I should have worded this better: What do you do BEFORE they tell you? I always lean towards enforcing the rules as written at these events. It's Championship play, after all.



Just as it says. We enforced the rule and its effect as written when we discovered the violation. I'm not sure if discussing the entire situation in a public forum is the best course of action.

All that said...I did get to FINALLY watch and evaluate myself for once. I had one nice call, at least: https://youtu.be/vDocZqE_iZs?t=18770, although I should have stepped into the signal to finish it.

I enjoyed the sequence starting at 9:13:16, including the coach with the clipboard and the screaming mom.

(I still think starting point of plate and working right as the play unfolds is the best way to see this play, but I get that softball does it diff'ernt.)

Also, there's what looks like a pretty severe injury on a slide at 11:14:30 on the video that ends up delaying the game for about 27 minutes.

teebob21 Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1008153)
I enjoyed the sequence starting at 9:13:16, including the coach with the clipboard and the screaming mom.

(I still think starting point of plate and working right as the play unfolds is the best way to see this play, but I get that softball does it diff'ernt.)

Also, there's what looks like a pretty severe injury on a slide at 11:14:30 on the video that ends up delaying the game for about 27 minutes.

ASA/USA wants us to start 1BLX as PU and rotate as necessary. NCAA is OK with starting at point of plate from the get go. This being an ASA/USA tournament, I went 15-18 feet 1BLX to read the play and closed to 10-12 to make the call on a tag. (I was not the umpire at 9:13)

That injury at 11:14 is the compound fracture I mentioned in the OP. I was U3, right on top of it. Sounded horrible. Sounded like a combination between a wooden bat breaking and a .22 starter pistol. You'll see me immediately kill it and call for medical personnel. Nothing but a clean late slide and an SS who unfortunately stepped directly into a sliding runner, instead of out of the baseline. :(

As an aside, if you're wondering why I was a bit defensive to the assistant coach immediately after the injury, that's because he told me "That call was absolute bullshit and you know it. You got her hurt and you're gonna cost her that scholarship." Normally in this level of play, that's an ejection for me, but not at that moment. I told him to knock it off, let's be concerned about the player and we could talk about his thoughts on the call later. Instead of talking to me, they went to the TD and said I was rude while they had a hurt player. :|

ASA/NYSSOBLUE Wed Jul 26, 2017 06:34am

Quote:

That injury at 11:14 is the compound fracture I mentioned in the OP. I was U3, right on top of it. Sounded horrible. Sounded like a combination between a wooden bat breaking and a .22 starter pistol. You'll see me immediately kill it and call for medical personnel. Nothing but a clean late slide and an SS who unfortunately stepped directly into a sliding runner, instead of out of the baseline. :(

As an aside, if you're wondering why I was a bit defensive to the assistant coach immediately after the injury, that's because he told me "That call was absolute bullshit and you know it. You got her hurt and you're gonna cost her that scholarship." Normally in this level of play, that's an ejection for me, but not at that moment. I told him to knock it off, let's be concerned about the player and we could talk about his thoughts on the call later. Instead of talking to me, they went to the TD and said I was rude while they had a hurt player. :|
:eek: And poo on that coach....he should know shit happens..TD say anything?

Manny A Wed Jul 26, 2017 09:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008159)
As an aside, if you're wondering why I was a bit defensive to the assistant coach immediately after the injury, that's because he told me "That call was absolute bullshit and you know it. You got her hurt and you're gonna cost her that scholarship."

How in the hell does your call lead to her getting hurt? It wasn't as if you did something that resulted in her putting her leg into the runner's slide. Even if you had judged that the runner did something malicious, ruled the BR out as well, and ejected the runner, the shortstop's leg is still broken. What could you have possibly done differently that would have prevented that and kept the scholarship intact? What an idiotic thing to say.

Tru_in_Blu Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manny A (Post 1008171)
What an idiotic thing to say.

I won't disagree with that. But we've all probably reacted that way at some point. The fact that it was associated with such a traumatic injury had to be very emotional. And if it happened to be his daughter (perhaps not) that was hurt, that would be real tough.

I think Teebob took the right approach (if there is such a thing in that kind of situation) in focusing on the injured player.

I'm fortunate to not have something like that happen in games I've worked. I had a woman get a broken nose on a bad hop grounder, one broken leg on a play at the plate, and a torn up leg on a slide into home by a woman wearing shorts.

teebob21 Wed Jul 26, 2017 01:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE (Post 1008163)
:eek: And poo on that coach....he should know shit happens..TD say anything?

The UIC on the field went to the video during the injury delay and came to the same conclusion we did: late slide resulted in an unfortunate injury. He asked what I said to the assistant, and I told him. Nothing further came of it. It was just a "wrong place, wrong time" incident.

Manny A Wed Jul 26, 2017 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu (Post 1008174)
I won't disagree with that. But we've all probably reacted that way at some point. The fact that it was associated with such a traumatic injury had to be very emotional. And if it happened to be his daughter (perhaps not) that was hurt, that would be real tough.

I think Teebob took the right approach (if there is such a thing in that kind of situation) in focusing on the injured player.

I'm fortunate to not have something like that happen in games I've worked. I had a woman get a broken nose on a bad hop grounder, one broken leg on a play at the plate, and a torn up leg on a slide into home by a woman wearing shorts.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not criticizing Teebob's approach. I'm just appalled that the coach would come up with such a blatantly wrong accusation of the umpire's role here. I would've expected something more like the coach accusing the other team's coach for teaching runners to take out fielders. But to place fault with the umpire here is way out of line, even in the heat of the moment.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Jul 26, 2017 08:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008159)
ASA/USA wants us to start 1BLX as PU and rotate as necessary. NCAA is OK with starting at point of plate from the get go. This being an ASA/USA tournament, I went 15-18 feet 1BLX to read the play and closed to 10-12 to make the call on a tag. (I was not the umpire at 9:13)

That injury at 11:14 is the compound fracture I mentioned in the OP. I was U3, right on top of it. Sounded horrible. Sounded like a combination between a wooden bat breaking and a .22 starter pistol. You'll see me immediately kill it and call for medical personnel. Nothing but a clean late slide and an SS who unfortunately stepped directly into a sliding runner, instead of out of the baseline. :(

As an aside, if you're wondering why I was a bit defensive to the assistant coach immediately after the injury, that's because he told me "That call was absolute bullshit and you know it. You got her hurt and you're gonna cost her that scholarship." Normally in this level of play, that's an ejection for me, but not at that moment. I told him to knock it off, let's be concerned about the player and we could talk about his thoughts on the call later. Instead of talking to me, they went to the TD and said I was rude while they had a hurt player. :|


He is an AC. Automatic ejection in my book as you described it. And I would not lose one second of sleep about the ejection.

MTD, Sr.

IRISHMAFIA Wed Jul 26, 2017 09:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1008195)
He is an AC. Automatic ejection in my book as you described it. And I would not lose one second of sleep about the ejection.

MTD, Sr.

The fact that it is the ASSISTANT coach should be irrelevant. It is a shit attitude for any umpire and definitely not supported by any rule

IRISHMAFIA Wed Jul 26, 2017 09:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008184)
The UIC on the field went to the video during the injury delay and came to the same conclusion we did: late slide resulted in an unfortunate injury. He asked what I said to the assistant, and I told him. Nothing further came of it. It was just a "wrong place, wrong time" incident.

Speaking of wrong place, that may have been a problem. I've always been of the belief that when there is an injury to a player (unless the umpire is a trained medical provider) the umpires should move to another area on the field and allow the team to take care of their player.

Nothing good can come of hanging out near the players and coaches during this time.

teebob21 Thu Jul 27, 2017 03:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1008195)
He is an AC. Automatic ejection in my book as you described it. And I would not lose one second of sleep about the ejection.

MTD, Sr.

With all due respect Mark, this is a baseball mentality...one which I would have a hard time subscribing to, even if I still worked baseball. Some of the conferences I work unofficially treat an AC as a subhuman mute homunculus, but I just can't get on board with that.

Every coach on my field has the same amount of rope, regardless of title. Players get less, but that's because they're players. A situation like this, and you have to get mighty personal or profane before I send you off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 1008197)
Speaking of wrong place, that may have been a problem. I've always been of the belief that when there is an injury to a player (unless the umpire is a trained medical provider) the umpires should move to another area on the field and allow the team to take care of their player.

Nothing good can come of hanging out near the players and coaches during this time.

Agreed. I have CPR and basic first aid training, but I am not a medical provider. While I immediately knew this was a serious injury, I got out of there as soon as I saw that it was not life-threatening and medical personnel were on the scene.

On a different topic....how about that sell out call on the swipe tag at 3B five minutes before the injury?!! (<--- shameless self promotion) :D :)

IRISHMAFIA Thu Jul 27, 2017 08:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008203)
Agreed. I have CPR and basic first aid training, but I am not a medical provider. While I immediately knew this was a serious injury, I got out of there as soon as I saw that it was not life-threatening and medical personnel were on the scene.

When I say another area, I mean the moment a coach is approaching the injured player, head to someplace 60+ feet away. Great time to get a drink of water, review any issues with your partners, maybe even take a trip to the head, be anywhere, but near that player and staff. BTW, there was nothing wrong with the call. They don't teach their players to slide properly and he is talking to you?

Quote:

On a different topic....how about that sell out call on the swipe tag at 3B five minutes before the injury?!! (<--- shameless self promotion) :D :)
You need to remember to pull that right leg around :)

ASA/NYSSOBLUE Thu Jul 27, 2017 09:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008203)
With all due respect Mark, this is a baseball mentality...one which I would have a hard time subscribing to, even if I still worked baseball. Some of the conferences I work unofficially treat an AC as a subhuman mute homunculus, but I just can't get on board with that.

Every coach on my field has the same amount of rope, regardless of title. Players get less, but that's because they're players. A situation like this, and you have to get mighty personal or profane before I send you off.



Agreed. I have CPR and basic first aid training, but I am not a medical provider. While I immediately knew this was a serious injury, I got out of there as soon as I saw that it was not life-threatening and medical personnel were on the scene.

On a different topic....how about that sell out call on the swipe tag at 3B five minutes before the injury?!! (<--- shameless self promotion) :D :)

One of our hs group's members was a certified EMT - we were reminded time and time again, that he was the only one who was officially allowed to help an injured player - otherwise get your butt out of there, and let the coaches (who are supposed to be certified in first aid) help out.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Jul 27, 2017 09:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE (Post 1008209)
One of our hs group's members was a certified EMT - we were reminded time and time again, that he was the only one who was officially allowed to help an injured player - otherwise get your butt out of there, and let the coaches (who are supposed to be certified in first aid) help out.

Ran into this at a national where one of our umpires assigned to the tournament was an EMT. A girl on one field had a similar play and went down. That umpire was working an adjacent field. We stopped that game to allow her to help the injured player on the next field.

Yes, it put both games behind, but no one really cared nor complained. If they did, I never heard it.

Crabby_Bob Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008203)
[...]

On a different topic....how about that sell out call on the swipe tag at 3B five minutes before the injury?!! (<--- shameless self promotion) :D :)

Good call, but you let her get ahead of you. In your defense, she had no business going to third.

teebob21 Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob (Post 1008218)
Good call, but you let her get ahead of you. In your defense, she had no business going to third.

No kidding. The ball was in the air before she reached 2B and she still kept on going...AND she almost made it! That girl was fast.

ASA/NYSSOBLUE Thu Jul 27, 2017 07:27pm

[QUOTE=

On a different topic....how about that sell out call on the swipe tag at 3B five minutes before the injury?!! (<--- shameless self promotion) :D :)[/QUOTE]

It would be shameless...if I could find it :D

teebob21 Thu Jul 27, 2017 08:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE (Post 1008238)
It would be shameless...if I could find it :D

Second pitch of the game. https://youtu.be/vDocZqE_iZs?t=40285

ASA/NYSSOBLUE Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 1008239)
Second pitch of the game. https://youtu.be/vDocZqE_iZs?t=40285

Thanks - nice...

josephrt1 Fri Jul 28, 2017 09:46am

On 2nd pitch of game, for the play at 3rd. Whose call was that? Shouldn't the PU have that call in 3-man mechanics? 1st base ump should have been heading home? what am i missing?

As pointed out in the next few posts, U1 went out. Sorry, I missed that.

umpjim Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by josephrt1 (Post 1008255)
On 2nd pitch of game, for the play at 3rd. Whose call was that? Shouldn't the PU have that call in 3-man mechanics? 1st base ump should have been heading home? what am i missing?

Didn't U1 go out?

Jake26 Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by umpjim (Post 1008257)
Didn't U1 go out?

They did.

Manny A Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:16pm

I noticed that as well, and had to re-run the play to see that U1 did go out. I got confused when it looked like the PU was headed that way, and then U3 took the call.


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