Face masks?
 

This article was in yesterday's online USA Today:

Kentucky becomes first state to mandate additional face protection in softball | USA Today High School Sports

What say you?

MTD, Sr.

Bravo!! Very proud of my state's high school association. We had at least two very publicized hits this past season. One almost ended the career (And could have possibly ended her life) of a college signee. The kid was apparently very much against wearing a mask, but changed her tune completely after she recovered. The other bounced off the facemask of a pitcher who was able to throw the very next pitch. Both videos were very frightening to watch. They mandated the masks for pitcher and the two corners.

We all know who here is going to fuss and fume about this....and I say foo on them- I always feel better when I see at least the P wearing one, and better when the corners are wearing them. I can't imagine someone opposing mandating a relatively inexpensive, proven available safety device, simply because it is "overreaching", and that it should be "personal choice".

Bravo to Kentucky, and I expect other jurisdictions to soon follow their lead, until NFHS wakes up and smells the coffee....and maybe USA JO also...

I would not be surprised to see NY (non-NFHS) to do so sooner than later - we mandated coaches helmets couple a years ago...

I wonder what will happen if a player wearing a mask gets clobbered and seriously injured or killed. Remember, there is no standard set.

Not big fan of the government sticking their nose into this or other sports situations.

And I tire of the cowardice demonstrated by coaches and parents who WANT such a rule mandating the masks. If it was that important to them, why is there a need for a rule or law to get them on their players/daughters during a game?

I echo Mike to the fullest.

It isn't necessary to mandate, as now it is optional (and not prohibited). If a coach, player, parent believe the facemask is in the player's best interest, then that group can decide for the player to wear one. Or allow the player to make the choice.

And as Mike said, when you mandate, you must make a safety standard. And at this time, there is not safety standard for a facemask.

I, too, agree with the minority. Why does it take a governing body to mandate what responsible parents and coaches should do? If batting helmets weren't required by rule, would they let girls bat without them?

Yeah, perhaps other states will take similar action, but I don't see this becoming a FED-wide requirement without a NOCSAE-approved device on the market.

Exactly. :rolleyes:

Does this mean that Dad can twist some wires together and weld them in his garage, attach an elastic strap and call that a mask?

Without a standard or definition of the requirement, this is what could potentially happen.....

Here in the deep South, that would be a coat hanger with duct tape:D.

Along those same lines as bending up a coat hangar, does anyone have the actual wording of the rule Kentucky is implementing because all I have seen says face protection and must be worn as intended by the manufacture. Well, this is face protection.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Safety-Work...eld/1000042479

This does not give any wording of the rule, but the relevant paragraphs of the Release follow:

The Board of Control conducted its first organizational meeting of the 2017-18 academic year July 14-15 at the Hotel Covington in Northern Kentucky. Over the course of its two-day meeting, the Board took a progressive step in the area of student-athlete safety by approving a recommendation from staff to mandate the use of face protection in softball for pitchers, first basemen and third basemen. The Board’s action, which follows the recommended use of protective headgear in July of 2014, makes Kentucky the first state to require face protection in high school softball, and continues the KHSAA’s willingness to be at the forefront in regards to player safety, as the Association implemented a pitch count in baseball one year before it was approved at the national level.

The KHSAA submitted a proposal to amend the NFHS playing rules at the 2017 NFHS Summer Meeting (June 28-July 2), but the recommendation was not approved nationally. The new requirement will go into effect at all levels of play among KHSAA member schools with the upcoming 2018 season. A specific model or brand was not specified, but all face protection equipment must to be worn as intended by the manufacturer in order to comply with NFHS rules. It will also be recommended for immediate implementation to the Middle School Advisory Committee when that body meets during the 2017-18 school year.

“While I was disappointed with the NFHS Rules Committee action in not approving the proposal, it was not altogether surprising as there will always be disagreement when required equipment issues are debated. However, we cannot sit idly by any longer when obvious solutions exist to protect the young ladies in the Commonwealth who want to play this great and continually growing game where the talent and ability levels continues to improve,” said KHSAA Commissioner Julian Tackett. “The marketplace will guide folks through the many already existing alternatives for face protection, along with the rules book requirement across the board in all NFHS sports that require equipment to be worn as intended by the manufacturer.

“I am thankful our Board decided to act now rather than wait until the issue reaches critical mass and other entities find themselves in the position of needing to be reactive rather than proactive in this area. Our experience the last few years has left us with multiple anecdotal and documented reports of incidents within our state that leave us no option but to leave our national rules making body behind in terms of waiting for change. Our students deserve only the best protection decisions that we, as rules and policy makers, can develop. It is also unfortunate that our Board’s proactive recommendation from 2014 to the member schools was not universally implemented by the school systems, schools, coaches, parents and student participants as perhaps those groups felt the need for a higher body to make the rule a requirement. If that was the case, they need wait no longer.”


I know, TMI, but I suspect that is all we know to this point. A quick glance at the NFHS site did not yield the wording of the Kentucky proposal that was rejected.

Just a point about those objecting to government involvement, etc.

This rule was put in place by the Kentucky High School Athletic Association, not the state legislature or any other agency of the Kentucky state government.

At the bottom of this page are other threads with similar titles. I was reading one, P face masks, found a long post by Mr. Consistency from 8 years ago saying just about what he said here. :cool:
I was about to copy and paste it here, but I then had a worm infection block. :eek:
I have no way of knowing if they are related, but I won't be back to that thread.
Apparently, my computer had lots of junk and unsafe files.:eek: It took Microsoft's tech almost 2 hours of scans and cleaning. :(
YUK!

According the the news reports out of KY, there was already legislation in the works.

For those who do not remember, we went through the same thing with the masks for the batting helmets.

It took over 18 months prior to the rule actually taking effect. The rule (ASA) was initiated prior to a NOCSAE testing, probationary period to be completed after a standard being set after ASTM.

The serious parents and coaches went out an purchased whatever they thought would work and yes, there were some garage-developed pieces created and jury-rigged to fit their helmets.

In 2006, when the rule went into effect (requiring the separate NOCSAE certification, the coaches and parents were beside themselves when helmet were turned down as acceptable. Fortunately, what at that time was one of the largest Walmarts in the country was 5-10 minutes away and from what I understand, sold out what masks they had.

They all knew the rule, but could not understand why whatever they put on their DD's helmet wasn't acceptable since it was ..........are you ready for this?......I know you have heard it before.......here it is......ALLOWED AT HOME and all the other tournaments they played that year.

This was a 16U A National, but their confusion was understandable considering the other questions I fielded concerning what they were allow to get away with that season which included using an EH, 2 DPs (know idea how that worked), must slide rules and Steve M's favorite, a no jewelry rule.

Should USA Softball follow suite with the pitchers, assuming they hold to the same legal liability beliefs as in the past, we may see this whole scenario repeated.

I wouldn't doubt it. I was just being pedantic.

I agree with your views on this, BTW.

I am a bit mystified as to how they could put this in place without any standards at all. I'd like to see the actual rule rather than a press release describing it.

This is the most information I can find directly from the KHSAA website.

If that is all the wording they are using to specify facial protection a player could literally wear a halloween mask and say it is facial protection. Or as I posted earlier, a grinding faceshield from Home Depot or Lowes. That is also facial protection.

A welder's mask for the bright, sunny days would be interesting. And don't laugh, I've already seen it by a pitcher and batter in SP

I'm having trouble believing you have not posted the Lone Ranger. :p :) :)

Well, I never said anything about government involvement. What I said was it took a governing body to make this mandatory as opposed to having coaches and parents become more responsible for their kids.

I started this thread so I thought I should comment further.

I see no problem with mandating a face mask in fact I would vote for such a requirement if I were on the NFHS and NCAA Softball Rules Committees, and the ASA Rules Committee.

BUT, I do believe that before such a mandate is made that ASTM standards developed and NOCSAE testing should have been done. That is the engineering "me" speaking. And I know that MTD, Jr., would agree with me.

MTD, Sr.

Agree. At the end of the day, we really have no idea how safe the masks currently on the market really are. They may appear to be safe, but who's to know if they truly are. That's probably why no national governing body wants to make them mandatory.

Funny enough, the first two or three sentences can also be applied to umpire masks.

So-called hockey-style helmets are available and at least some (maybe all?? I've never checked into it) are NOCSAE approved. We are (mostly) adults who can make the choice for a NOCSAE approved helmet if we so choose.

2020 - elbow guards made mandatory

2024 - ankle guards made mandatory


:eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :D :D :D

All of the objections on this particular thread to the KHSAA mandate are valid LEGAL points. At least you guys are not saying stupid things like the masks are not needed, it should be a personal choice, etc. And I agree some parents and coaches are probably cowards because they won't stand up to their own kids and say "Wear the mask or you don't play".

First, I'm not that parent or coach. If you play for me, you wear the mask. Secondly, what do we do to protect those kids while the lengthy process of testing those masks takes place?Again, lawyers are not standing on that field. Young kids with varying degrees of maturity and ability are, and a few of them without a mask are getting hurt. And you guys all know the masks on the market work better than nothing at all.

So, the rule has been established. It may very well save a kid's life next season. Now go ahead and start the testing, get the certifications, etc. Sometimes common sense has to step in front of legalities and society's never-ending urge to question and debate almost everything. And you guys make sure to snap a picture of any homemade twisted wire masks that you see on the field today. :) And let me know if Lowes has a special on their face shields-I will run out and buy a dozen for my team and throw the high quality Rip-It, Schutt, etc. masks in the trash. :)

I've had the same thoughts, but I was told by some pretty reliable sources close to KHSAA the real reason all if these governing organizations have hesitated is because of the pre-existing injury lawsuits and the indirect admission of "guilt" associated with mandating them at this point.

No, they are standing behind the dugouts with a briefcase full of retainer agreements :)

Don't know if I'd be so fast jumping on that bandwagon. There have been some pretty wild garage/basement made concoctions appear over the years. Good intent, but maybe not as safe as they appear

Who is going to pay to commission such testing?

Well, see, that is part of the problem. When the certified masks were mandated on the batting helmet, the people couldn't understand why they had to replace the "perfectly good" (yet neither tested or certified) Rip-it, Schutt or whatever other manufactured cage that was already attached to the helmet. Many were just outright headstrong about MAKING them spend another $15-$25 for another mask they insisted they did not need. Of course, like the bats, many voiced their displeasure and accused ASA of passing the requirement simply to make more money off of masks. This was a little strange to me that these same folks buy into the $200-$300 Make-My-Daughter-a-Superstar bat in a heartbeat, but go off the deep end on something like a piece of safety equipment.

Who is this "we" of which you speak? Coaches, leagues, and parents already have all the authority they need.

If anyone can post a link to the actual wording of the rule, I'd like to read it.

I would hope, for example, the rule mandates that the mask be manufactured for the purpose of softball fielder protection, not just something homemade or just any ol' "mask". If they did that, in reality it is no different from what a coach or a league would mandate (but it probably does shift the burden of legal liability to the Kentucky High School Athletic Association should one of these masks break and cause injury).

Retired ump here. I'm a bit surprised that NOCSAE standards haven't been implemented by now.

NOCSAE doesn't provide the standards, ASTM develops the standards based upon what the equipment needs to accomplish/provide.

NOCSAE certifies the equipment offered meets those standards.

And none of this is done on a lark or gratis.

IOW, it won't happen until someone pays for it!

My first thought was absolutely there should be a requirement to wearing face protection. (I almost had a slow pitch pitcher get drilled in the face tonight, missed her ear by about 2 inches. Ironically, the opposing pitcher pitches in a catchers mask because he took a line drive to the nose last season and had to have surgery to repair the nose.)

With that said, if there is not a manufacturing standard in place for these facemasks like there is for batting helmets then the rule needs to be looked at.

We had a similar push about 15 years ago for pole vaulters to be required to wear helmets. The problem was that there was (and still isn't to my knowledge) a helmet specifically designed and tested for pole vaulters to wear. One school mandated helmets and a student athlete was wearing a skate board helmet, landed on the mat poorly and flew off the mat, hitting his head on the standard. Despite wearing a helmet, he suffered a significant concussion. His parents settled out of court with the school district that mandated the helmet use. The reason the district settled was that they were requiring equipment to be worn that was not designed for what it was being required for.

Since there is not tested and approved safety mask for the purpose, the KHSAA might be opening themselves up to legal action if someone is injured or killed while wearing this piece of protective equipment.

With that said, I would still much prefer a pitcher or corner infielder wear a mask of some sort. I don't think it should be mandated because parents should require it of their children. Sadly we see to many cases of "I don't want to wear it" turning into "I wish I had been wearing it."

I've coached young players for 2 years, and I required even the outfielders to wear them. Our fields are crap and I've seen base hits bounce up and hit players in the face.

I know that masks will get fewer and farther between as the kids get older. I know this -- as long as I'm paying any bills MY daughter will wear one no matter what position she plays.

As someone on a "you'll get sued" list - how do I know if the mask is sufficiently protective? What do I need to do to meet such a rule? What if we select Brand A and it fails and we get sued by someone who claims we should have known Brand A is no good? What basis does either of us use in such for such a claim?

Curious if my umpire's mask is NOCSAE rated/approved.

Where would I see the markings?

It likely is not approved, unless it is approved as a catcher's mask, and even then, the approval will likely require it to be paired with an approved helmet.

NFHS requires a mask for PUs. Do I get to sue them if it fails and I get injured?

:rolleyes:

Sure. Do you get to win? Well, that's a different question! :D

Well, as Irish claims, it should be about the competition. Does it really matter who wins? ;)

One of these days, one of you guys are gonna say "Young lady, is that facemask properly tested and certified?", and she's gonna kick you in your cup protector and say "Is that tested and certified?" :D:D:D ;)

One of our local slow pitch league's officers wanted to mandate face-guards and cups for pitchers. This was brought up at their kickoff meeting back in March.

We told them it was their league and they could write bylaws to govern their league, but our umpires were NOT going to be performing cup checks on their pitchers.

Remember that commercial a few years back, maybe Staples, about who had the "office pen"?

Not going there...