Batter Interference?
 

USA (ASA) 12U--No runners on base. I am BU. Batter hits ball, which comes to rest in fair territory about a foot from the plate. Batter starts to 1st and contacts ball. PU calls her out. Offense coach argues that, since one of the batter's feet was still in the box when contact was made, this should be a foul ball. PU asks for assistance. I say batter is out. Call stands. What say ya"ll??

Very similar discussion going on on a facebook umpires forum.

8-2-F is the applicable rule and it actually makes no reference to batter/runners position in relation to the batters box. It simply says the batter/runner is out if they make contact with a fair batted ball prior to reaching 1st base.

The rule cited by RKBUmpm is the definitive response. The difference between this rule and the definition of Foul Ball (F) is very often misstated, and even more often ruled incorrectly.

In Foul Ball (F), the batted ball touches the batter who is within the batter's box; foul ball. In your OP (I underlined the pertinent statement), the ball did NOT touch the batter, the (now) batter-runner contacted the fair batted ball!!

The foul ball definition is meant to protect a batter who fouls the ball off her own body, and not attempt to determine if that body part was in fair or foul territory. Batter, still in the batter's box, ball hits the batter; foul ball. Not a batter-runner, who on the way out of the batter's box, runs into a fair batted ball; out, no matter if batter-runner or ball was still in the batter's box.

In any case it is the location of the ball which determines wheither it is fair or foul, although the interpretation is that if the batter is struck while in the batters box it is a foul ball no matter what.

This is a dead-ball out. Runners, if any, return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

False. Not an interpretation, not no matter what. Read the rules cited.

It is your job to know if the ball hit the batter, or if the batter-runner contacted the ball. Two completely different rules with two different results. There is no interpretation at any level to rule a batter-runner contacting a fair ball in the batters box as a foul ball.

Same basic premise as a discarded bat; did the bat hit the ball (out), or did the ball hit the bat (play on). Make the call, not misapply a rule based on a nonexistent interpretation.

Are you saying that if the batter kicks a ball that is within the batters box while the batter is within the box that you will call her out?
I also think this has nothing to do with your analogy of the ball hitting the bat or vice versa because that is based on an actual rule that the bat cannot strike the ball twice if fair.

Absolutely, yes. That is an out. Based on an actual rule. And as others have stated in this post. Not sure what part of that is unclear.

Again, read the rule referenced. It is crystal clear, and there is no written interpretation that changes it. 8.2-F(4) The batter-runner is out when ..... contacts a fair batted ball before reaching first base.

I suggest you cite any rule or specific written interpretation from ASA/USA that you feel contradicts this.

If you cannot see the analogy, maybe you should ask someone you trust how it applies, since you seem unwilling to consider it.

No, since it is a fair batted ball, the batter-runner is out. :)

Had this very same thing happen to my team while on defense today. Batter hit a ball that bounced hard in front of the plate. Batter came out of the box in full stride with one foot out and one foot still in. Ball bounces up and she hits it with her chest. "FOUL BALL!!"

Did you ask the official why it wasnt ruled an out?

Yes. Immediately. He said "because she was still in the box" and I very quickly recited the above rule and he nodded toward the BU. The poor base umpire looked like he swallowed his tongue when I spouted out that rule and quickly recovered and said "well she hit the ball twice with her bat so it's a foul ball." I just smiled and said "really?". No need in pushing it. I got my point across. Interesting thing happened just a couple batters later. My first baseman stretched way out and got an out at first that sure looked safe to me. :) I'm old enough to just let things go and let them work themselves out sometimes.

I misread the OP--yes, since the ball is a foot in front of the plate it would be an out if the runner contacted it while heading to first base.
I assumed we were talking about a ball that is within the batters box that the batter contacts while she is still in the box.
That I am calling a foul ball.

MT, remember that it's possible for a batted ball to be in the batter's box AND be in fair territory.
Soft powder dirt, a bunt goes straight down and dies there (in the BB). If the batter makes a move toward 1B she is now a BR (could be still completely in the BB). If she contacts that ball she's out. In the BB.

Possibe in theory but that is a mighty fine line to cross and I was trained to give the benefit of doubt to the batter and call it a foul ball.
Since this is a judgement call it cannot be argued or protested.
Others here are free to do it their way.

That is not a judgment call; it is a misapplication of the rule. USA 8.2-F(4): The batter-runner is out when the batter-runner interferes by making contact with a fair batted ball before reaching first base.

Calling this a foul ball is inviting a protest. A ball that stops (settles) over fair territory is, by definition, fair. Any contact with the ball by the BR is an out, batter's boxes or not.

The definition of a foul ball (subsection F) requires that the batted ball touches the batter or the bat a second time. A stationary ball can't make contact with anything. As has been posted previously, the judgment on this play is did the ball hit the player (ball>>>player) or did the player hit the ball (player>>>ball). Other sports have the word "impetus" in their rulebook verbiage. That concept applies here as well, just as it does in a batted ball being hit a second time.

If I judge the stationary ball to be foul before it is touched then it is foul.
Then again usually things happen so fast that it is hardly ever a stationary ball that is struck by the batter but is a bang-bang situation.
In any case calling a ball foul is something that cannot be protested

Using the word judgement in your ruling is not a get out of jail free card. Pure judgement on a call cannot be protested, but when a misapplication of a rule led to the judgement call it most certainly can be protested.

Let's reduce the judgement factor (which I think is a cop-out to not have to enforce this rule)

Let's say the situation where, like above, the ball goes straight down, and dies in the soft powder, up inside the BB (fair territory). Batter and F2 stand there (they're young, think its foul). You look down, see it's plainly up in the fair corner of the BB. Coach yells "Run!", and she kicks it on the way out.

What's your call gonna be?

It depends.
It would have to be well up in the box for me to deem it a fair ball and if so I would call her out.
But in 15 years of umpiring that has never happened.
What I am referring to is a bang bang contact--batter hits ball, ball then hits batter--or batter runs into the ball - as she is starting to first but has not yet left the box.
In this situation--which has occurred to me dozens of times --I am not going to take a mental yardstick and decide if the ball was in the fair or foul side of the box.
I am killing the action and calling it foul.
This is how I was taught and some of my clinicians have been Major and Minor league umpires--one of whom was Justin Klemm.
And unless softball is radically different in this rule from baseball---which I doubt--then I will stick with their advice.

Horsecrap.
A ball can be fair by 6 feet but if the umpire calls it foul then it is foul.
And if I say the ball was on the foul part of the box then good luck protesting that.

Dead ball; batter-runner is out; all runners return AND the only thing it depends upon is my observation that the ball was in fair territory.

So you would lie to sell a call?

Now, THAT is horseshit! The box is irrelevant to fair or foul, so where it is in the box means absolutely nothing.

So basically you are the umpire I encountered on Saturday. You know the rule, but you've decided to call that a foul for the rest of your career? That's basically what you're saying.

If there is immediate contact with batter and ball in the box then yes, I am calling it foul.
In 15 years this has never been an issue.
End of discussion.

This forum prides itself on civility, politeness, courtesy and respect for each other. :(

Ok, in this case, it is a foul ball in softball and baseball. Even if you see that the batter's front foot is at the top of the box, clearly in fair territory, there are rules that essentially state that a batted ball that hits the batter while the batter is in the batter's box is foul. In USA Softball, that's under rule 7-4-J. I'm not going to search other rule sets for similar rulings since the OP is USA Softball.

Now you have an entirely different situation, which is the case of the batter-runner contacting a live ball as he/she starts running to first base. That's usually something that happens after the ball has bounced on the ground or the plate, or is still in flight but hasn't directly hit the batter. That's not covered under rule 7-4-J; rather, as others have pointed out, it's covered under rule 8-2-F4 if the ball is fair when the batter-runner contacts it. Under this circumstance, you MUST decide if the ball was fair or foul. It's not an automatic just because the batter-runner was in the box when he/she made contact with the ball.


And that's where you're flat-out wrong. You MUST judge where the ball was located when the batter-runner contact it. Yes, if you judge that the ball itself was in foul territory when the batter-runner made contact with it, there's really nothing a coach can do to dispute that call. But if you say the ball was foul because the batter-runner was in the box when he/she contacted the ball, then you have opened yourself up to a protest due to a misinterpretation of the rule. There is nothing in 8-2-F4 that provides protection to the batter-runner just because he/she is still in the box. The box isn't even mentioned in that rule.

You need to understand the difference between the two scenarios, because they are fundamentally different.