World Series call/no call discussion
 

I thought last night's safe call on the runner going to home was pretty bad. If that's not running out of one's base path, nothing is. I bet the PU wishes they could see it again/take it back. The TV folks sure agree as they played it back a lot and more today. I didn't have my sound on and did not hear any discussion till today. Also the UCLA coach going ballistic over a perceived obstruction. That no call was correct in my mind. Train wrecks at home are not totally avoidable.

I just watched the UCLA/TAMU play at the plate. I think this is a good OBS no call. IMHO, the position of the catcher did not impede or hinder the runner until the catcher was in the act of catching.

The ejection appeared warranted as well, although we should not step towards game participants when ejecting; we should step away. The bump after the EJ was just plain uncalled for. That's a suspension.

Basketball/football guy here

What are the rules/philosophies in softball regarding assistants arguing calls? In basketball most officials have a very short leash for assistants misbehaving before assessing a technical foul. Applying my basketball knowledge to softball, I was surprised she wasn't tossed sooner, but I also have never umpired before.

Couldn't care less what the individual's position is on the team, they have the right to represent their team in a professional manner. all are equally liable to be ejected as necessary

Only the head coach is permitted to approach an umpire.
Assistants are to be seen and not heard.

Please show me the rule stating that. I hear this over and over again from officials and yet there is no rule saying anything of the sort. The head coach is ultimately responsible for the actions of their coaching staff, but there is no rule saying only the head coach may interact with the officials.

Simply not true. That is truly OOO.

It is not in the rules but is accepted practice.
Since you hear this over and over again perhaps this should have sunk in by now.
If you guys want to take crap from an assistant coach or a score keeper be my guest.
I suppose you also allow assistants at your pre game plate conference?

Why wouldnt I allow any coach that wants to attend the pregame conference to present. In fact, if you read the NFHS umpires manual regarding the pregame conference it says any coach who wishes to attend may do so. The only requirement in NFHS is that the head coach must be present.

And no, nothing needs to sink in. Just because numerous officials have a superiority complex saying they wont talk to anyone but the head coach regardless of it not being in the rule book does not make it proper or accepted it merely makes it one of those myths perpetuated by officials, much like the numerous rule myths passed on year after year by unknowing parents and coaches. By your train of thought, head coach at 3rd base, assistant coach at 1st and a pulled foot on a close play at 1st base. You would require the assistant coach to go to the head coach, tell them what they say and then have the head coach go to the calling official to ask for assistance on the call.

Or, how about a situation that involves some obscure rule. The assistant coach knows the rule but the head coach does not. Again, you are going to require the assistant coach to go to the head coach, and then the head coach to come to the officials. Then, if there is further question on the rule, the head coach must run back and forth between their assistant and the umpires in order to discuss the situation because "assistants should be seen and not heard"?

There is absolutely nothing in writing anywhere saying only the head coach may interact with the officials. As Irish just said, anyone who claims so is being beyond overly officious.

A team hires a pitching coach, because the head coach knows little to nothing about pitching. An umpire (doesn't matter which) calls an illegal pitch; the team sends out a representative asking for clarification of the call made.

Personally, I WANT to talk to the pitching coach, who is more likely to understand what it is I'm saying, so the pitcher can fix it and I won't have to keep calling the same violation.

MT 73, you have been taught and practice the baseball philosophy intended to promote a chain of command to manage the game. That isn't the prevailing softball philosophy; in collegiate games, you will lose conference assignments and be dropped off conference staffs if you practice that at that level. Even if you survive, that current assistant will be a head coach some day, and will remember you as the umpire that treated her like dirt.

I keep assistant coaches on a short leash.
If they ask in a respectful manner I will respond likewise.
If they get in my face to argue, or start making snide comments I will call time and inform the head coach to get the offender in line.
After that I inform the offender to knock it off or face an ejection.
Which, BTW, I have never had to do since by that time they get it.
I do not do college nor NHFS so if being warm and fuzzy is necessary on the road to advancement then I wish you all the best of luck.
BTW-- I coached high level travel ball for years and if one of my assistants tried to argue a call I would have fired him in a NY minute.
I also told my parents that if they ever got into it with an umpire their daughter would be benched for the rest of the game.
Youth sports would be a lot more enjoyable for all if head coaches would take better charge of everyone-- coaches, assistants, parents and players.

No where of which I am aware

I've heard it before and promptly corrected the situation and umpire. It is the act of an over-officious official. As a coach, I would openly refuse to accept your direction.

My HS association only allows captains and head coaches at the pregame conference.
If as a coach you refused to accept this or ANY other of my directions you would be dumped and reported.

Thought you didn't work high school?

Lets not get any testier or negatively personal. :rolleyes:

Those aren't the same thing.

Report away. During the hearing, I would simply ask what provides you with such authority. Is there a rule specifically supporting your direction that you will only deal with HC?

In ASA/USA, the book specifically states that a coach is there to represent their team. No specific coach, any coach even a player/coach. How can a coach represent the team and players if the umpire refuses to entertain any questions or discussion?

I wonder why? It is true that by rule only the team's head coach can verify the lineup card, acknowledge that his/her players are properly and legally equipped, and that players and equipment are in compliance with NFHS rules. But that doesn't mean an assistant coach cannot attend the plate conference with the head coach. Does your association find something improper with assistant coaches attending the conference? Some of those assistants are going to be head coaches at some point, so why not let them attend and learn?

Quite frankly I never gave it much thought as to why.
And in 6 years of umpiring NYC HS I have never had an assistant coach even try to come out for a conference.
Heck, 70% of the teams do not even have an assistant coach.
To repeat, I wil not just remain mute if a coach has a legitimate question or seeks a ruling in a respectful manner.
And if an assistant coach is on first base and claims that F3 was off the bag I will react s if the manager made such a request.
But I will NOT give the same leeway to an assistant as I would to the head coach because they are not in charge of the team.
The only time that I ejected an assistant ( it was during the summer travel season) was when a scorekeeper came out to question a tag play.
After I explained to him the runner got under the tag he rolled his eyes and tossed his clipboard into the air.
I waited until he picked it up and then tossed him.

NFHS Baseball
RULE 1
SECTION 1
ARTICLE 2 . . . The captain and head coach represent the team in communications with umpires. The captain's and head coach’s duties shall include: 1) providing the umpire-in-chief with his team's lineup card which shall include the name, shirt number, position and batting order of each starting player, the name and shirt number of each eligible substitute should also be listed; and 2) informing all players as to special ground rules as announced by the umpire-in-chief. Lineups become official after they have been exchanged, verified and then accepted by the umpire during the pregame conference. The umpire shall not accept the lineup card until all substitutes are listed. There is no penalty assessed.

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MT73:
It is not in the rules but is accepted practice.
Since you hear this over and over again perhaps this should have sunk in by now.
If you guys want to take crap from an assistant coach or a score keeper be my guest.
I suppose you also allow assistants at your pre game plate conference?



NCAA and USSSA do not require that the head coach attend the pregame meeting, only that a member of the coaching staff attend. What would you do? Refuse to talk to them and insist that the head coach must attend?
Based on what? Your accepted practice?

This is what happens when you officiate in a bubble and don't see the world when umpiring. You don't learn any better until you hear something new, often because you just accept what people tell you without actually considering it. Then an "outsider" makes a statement and everyone is wrong and you are right.

I have head coaches who never coach bases. If there's a question about a pulled foot at 1st base, I'd be a fool not to converse with the 1st base coach.

I do not do not do NCAA or USSSA.
I only do USA for both HS and summer travel.
If the rules stated that the head coach does not have to attend the conference then why would I insist otherwise?
My association only wants the head coach and captains to attend the conference so why would I go against that?
And for crying out loud, how many times have I stated that I WILL--and have many times--communicate with an assistant if they do so in a respectful manner?
Talk about being in a bubble...
But you guys are correct---I mainly do baseball and under OBR--(and, thanks to Illinoisblue I see the same is true for NFHS baseball.) I was taught correctly who can and cannot communicate with an umpire.
I did go back and check my 2017 USA rulebook and I see that IrishMafia is correct about coaches--any coach--being able to communicate with and umpire so I will change my habits during the summer travel season.
Thanks to all for an informative and spirited debate.

If I recall correctly, New York HS doesn't play under Fed rules. EsqUmp or someone else closer to knowing how that works could explain further.

Edit - Aw crap I am replying to a page 1 comment on Page 2. Ignore me.

Edit 2: Ah hell, I will chime in. One of the organizations I work for has a semi-unwritten rule of "Assistants are to be seen and not heard." By semi-unwritten, I mean those words have come out of the rep's mouth at the umpire meeting, but you won't see it in any rulebook or manual. I have also heard, on several occasions, from good umpires: "Why were you discussing it with an assistant coach?" IMO, assistants are team personnel and they are free to talk to me. They get a little more rope than a player, and a lot less than the HC.

NYS plays under USA but uses some NFHS rules.
In NYC we go strictly under USA with one exception--we do not have a penalty for an unreported sub.
Your last sentence is exactly what I was trying to convey.