video says it all
 

Ok. That's pretty bad. Never anticipate the call, only anticipate the play

wow

Yup, that was pretty bad.

I hope he got to see the video.

He'll probably never STOP seeing it....:rolleyes:

So, as home umpire and partner what do you do when coach challanges the call?

Watch. And be prepared to escort the coach out if your partner ejects him.

No umpire has the authority to overturn another umpires call, nor should they ever seek to influence or change another umpires call without that umpire asking for assistance. Unless the calling umpire asked the plate umpire for assistance, the plate umpire needs to keep quiet. Even if the calling umpire does ask for additional information, the call is still theirs to keep or change.

Probably cringe, make an "are you kidding" face and then slowly start up the line to either aid in the disposal of the ejected coach (as Steve noted) or help the coach up from his ROTGLAO position.

I would love to know the circumstances which may have led to this call. We haven't talked about an FY call lately. :rolleyes:

Is it possible he thought the BR missed the base? :eek:

Not that it matters, just wondering. :rolleyes:

Not that it excuses the call....

But I would speculate it was possibly a "brain fart" call.
The brain was recording an obvious safe and the body just displayed the very nonchalant "out."

"Time! Time! Time! - By bad! The call is safe! Safe! - I'm sorry, I inadvertently made the incorrect signal."

Would get a good laugh (and maybe a scold) but certainly NO argument.

I wish the video went longer. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that robbie is right, and this guy corrected it nearly immediately. I bet this was "wrong signal" and not simply a horrific call.

Not according to another website that said the umpire told the runner to "get off the bag so we can play ball."

Yup, definitely sounds like a FYC, especially since the offended team won, 19-8.

Softball umpire’s horrendous call caught on video goes viral | | USA Today High School Sports

Well, if that's what he thought, then he still gave the wrong signal. When a BR misses first base but beats the throw, the "Safe" signal is proper. Then we just wait for the live ball appeal. But I know you know that...:D

If true, that's stunning. Wonder if this guy still has a job. Surely his boss is aware by now.

This happened in the Association next to where I call for HS. As you can imagine, it's been a point of discussion.

The game was a decent Fultondale team vs. a very bad Birmingham City School - "Minor". Think of 8u/10u bad vs HS Varsity. The score at the time was 19-2 Fultondale in the top of the 3rd. The umpire was looking for an out and picked a crappy time to try and get one. He is normally not a bad umpire and I have worked with him on several occasions. He just made a bad choice that got caught on video.

Unfortunately after the call, it got a little ugly with the umpire telling the coach to "get back in the dugout or you're gone". Again, not a great move. The video and story has now gone viral nationwide. I've receive two e-mails today from a college assigner and our State HS director tell all members to unlink the post and to not share it.

I'm thankful that all the stupid decisions I've made over the years aren't on video. While it is funny to think that the guy who made the call did a poor job and, quite frankly, sucks - he is still one of our fellow officials and normally a very good one.

Understatement of the Day. :p

Seriously, when things start getting way out of hand, many umpires will look for ways to stem the bleeding. I don't recommend doing that, but I even get caught up in the moment. Just last week in a HS game, the home team was already up 7-0 in the bottom of the third inning with no outs, and there was no doubt in anyone's mind that the visitors were not going to come close to scoring, and very likely the game would end after 4-1/2 innings. There was a somewhat close play at first that I felt the BR beat. I was in C since there were runners at second and third, and I made the long distance "Out" sell call, which was answered by a loud, "WHAT?!" by the head coach in the third base box. He didn't say anything else, probably realizing why I made that call. But I knew what I had done, and regretted it.

Unfortunately, this philosophy will be the reason that umpire will be an internet/youtube sensation for the next few decades for all the wrong reasons, and those kids will remember that for the rest of their lives. I fully understand the philosophy, but it shouldn't be about the umpire creed or whatever of each umpire being their own "island". It should be about the kids and fair play. Officials in other sports help each other out, and we don't see as many of these viral videos that are destined to become legends for generations in their sports.

With regards to the whole blowout thing and trying to get out of there, I've been on both sides of that nightmare. I see probably why he did it, but, like said earlier, he chose the wrong opportunity to stop the bleeding.

I can understand both coaches trying to shorten a blowout game.

With the team ahead at bat, and a runner on third, the third base coach got my attention to tell me the runner was leaving early. After a pitch and a bit of clarification, I called no pitch and his runner out for leaving early. She never left the bag. And everyone was grateful. It turned out to be the last out of the game.

For those who worry about the statistics of their team(s), leaving a base early is a good way to take an out. No need to ask a batter to swing at 3 pitches not close to the strike zone for an out. It's still a "K" in the book, and most hitters don't want that.

All games end eventually. I simply don't make stuff up on the bases.

I might grab an extra strike or two, but I won't end up on YouTube for that.

I agree totally. It's without a doubt the best way to get out of that situation. Head coaches need to discuss that scenario with their base coaches beforehand and have proper signals in place to do that. I had to literally call my 1st base coach once from 3rd base and tell him to do it. :)

It isn't any umpire Creed, it is written plain and simple in the rule book. It is a written rule, not some unwritten secret code. And even if they had gotten together and changed the call, this would still be all over the internet.

Agreed...

And while this particular example might be extremely egregious ... people need to remember that when you saw something differently from your partner (however egregious) ... your partner saw something different from you. And you stick with the original call in cases like that because 99.9% of the time they had a better look, angle, or distance --- that's why the call in question is THEIR call.

But, here's the deal; it's not a philosophy, it's paraphrasing a rule, in every rule book that I have ever seen.

In USA/ASA it's 10.3-B
In NFHS, it's 10-1-4
In NCAA, it's 15.2.8

If the other umpire attempts to interfere or "overrule" the umpire that makes the call, without being asked by the calling umpire, the OTHER team has absolute grounds for a protest that HAS to be upheld.

There are situations where any reasonable umpire would confer with his partner; there are simply times when it cannot properly happen without potentially destroying the integrity of the game. "about the kids and fair play" is EXACTLY why every judgment call should not be subject to oversight with the potential abuse that could come along with that.

The game, as played by human beings, includes errors of commission, omission, and judgment, by players and coaches. Those well meaning individuals espousing the "get it right" philosophy only want it right when 1) it is in their favor to change the call (well, unless the outcome is fully predetermined), and 2) never suggest that anyone consider replaying a pitch/play/out to correct the errors by players and/or coaches. Why are only umpire errors a matter of the "the kids and fair play" philosophy?

Then the rule needs to be changed. Plain and simple. I know lots of umpires who hate that rule. It's a tradition that needs to stop and catch up with the times. And that umpire should talk to the kid in private someday and say "Hey look, I made a mistake." I also read that he talked mean to the kid and told her to get off the bag so they could continue the game.

The rule is there for a reason.

What umpire would have jurisdiction to overrule another umpire? If you have 3 umpires does it become majority rule? In 2 umpire is it flip a coin?

OK - Not to excuse the call, Part 2...

Based on the story and the above posts, it looks like the U took it in his own hands to expedite the end of a blow out.

I'd bet the fact that the batter bunted for a hit with a 19-2 lead was a contributing factor. Although to be clear, I'm certainly not condoning this.

Funny - I'm sitting here reading the forum and I look up at the TV where "Pardon The Interruption" is playing.

Upcoming topic is "SOFTBALL FAIL." Gee, I wonder what that will be about???

Unfortunately, that philosophy is slowly working its way out of the sport. The use of video replay to get judgment calls corrected is prevalent in professional baseball, as well as college baseball. I'm not suggesting that video reviews will trickle down to youth sports, but the prevailing attitude is that an umpire's judgment call is no longer as absolute as it was in the past. Fans see how a banger call at first base or a close tag play at second are being challenged by managers, and they think it's high time that those same calls at lower levels should not be subjected to some kind of discussion.

Will the rules change to make all judgment calls "umpiring by committee" decisions where video is not available? Who knows. Us old veterans don't want that to happen, but as we move on, it would not surprise me if changes are made.

In NFHS baseball, a point of emphasis this year is that umpires should not be coming together to discuss calls just cause a coach asks. I was quite happy to see this, as too many umpires think coaches are entitled to "appeal" anything.

I'm sure there is more to the story....

I will say that I did something similar a few years ago....

HS JV game working solo. In the bottom of the first inning, home team has batted through their lineup twice and is starting the third time through. We are at approx batter number 20 for the half inning.

Two outs, batter hits a ground ball to F4, who fields and bobbles the ball, then throws to first. The runner was perhaps a step beyond the bag and I called her out. The first base coach started to protest, then realized the situation and calmly returned to his dugout.....

NOT a response to any specific post; but last year I saw a team score 12 in the first, 9 in the second and then lose. :eek:

Granted, two awful teams, but outcomes are not always obvious.

You were lucky.

The lesson learned from this current incident is pretty sobering. Always give it your best, because you just never know who's out there taking video of your game. This was likely a HS game with very few fans in the stands, but that should not matter. Virtually everyone nowadays carries a smartphone with them, and they could easily record something you do on the field for the sake of wanting to end a lopsided game, and make it go viral.

And it's not just calls we make. It's actions when we think nobody's paying attention to us. If you're the type person who feels compelled to laugh and cut-up and physically touch female players in the dugout during equipment checks (and, Yes, I have seen it!), or virtually strips naked in the parking lot when suiting up prior to or changing after the game, or you have a tendency to grab your crotch while standing there between innings, you may end up seeing yourself in those extremely compromising positions later on the internet. Nothing is really private anymore. So don't set yourself up.

I know we all feel compelled to ease things along when clueless coach doesn't know when to stop pouring it on. And this probably applies to baseball/softball more than most other sports, as we usually have no clock to save us like we do in other sports.

But this is NOT OUR JOB. Our job is to call what we see. To rule on what actually happens. Not to AFFECT what actually happens. The day we decide to take matters into our own hands might just be the day we put our entire profession to shame and end up on youtube like this guy.

A FRICKIN MEN!! I don't know how often I tell coaches no when they bellow "ask for help, ask for help" on a close play. Even worse is when you are taking care of it and your partner approaches. It simply gives the coach the chance to engage them. Unless I ask you, stay away and stay quiet.

I'm truly and honestly trying to learn here. I'm not trying to pick. But I have to ask, if there's a chance that you have badly blown a call, and a coach is saying "ask for help" while your partner has already started walking toward you, what is more important--your autonomy while following the rule OR the right call? When a coach says "ask for help", I can tell you from my own perspective, he or she is saying "Look, you blew that badly, I'm trying to save you here and give you a big hint that you need to ask for help." The game is not about the umpires. It's not about the coaches. And it's not about the fans in the stands. It's about the kids playing on the field, and their confidence in the adults to do the right thing to the best of their ability. Again, I am truly trying to understand and ask the question here as opposed to standing on a field in front of a crowd or camera and asking these question. But why can't the umpires just simply trust each other and realize that your colleague isn't going to overturn a call unless they are 100% sure it needs to be overturned? Would it be better if the other umpire looked at the coach and said "The rule does not allow me to say anything unless he asks for help?" I'd highly doubt that, but that is the honest answer. And I'm not talking about bang-bang judgement calls. I'm talking about things like a called out on a tag when the ball is literally laying on the ground beside the runner who just slid into third as a prime example. I've seen that very scenario happen, and the home plate umpire just stood there quietly while the entire universe screamed "he dropped the ball" to the 3rd base umpire who refused to even look at the home plate umpire.

If it were only that simple. And only that honest and honorable. And not picking and choosing a rule to selectively ignore.

For every umpire out there that will refuse to ask for help in an obvious "help" setting such as you describe, there is an equal (or higher) number of coaches that simply want to be able to challenge every judgment made, right or wrong, that doesn't go FOR their team. And the same number that will go ballistic if an umpire does get help and the reversal goes against their team, even if the reversal is clear and obvious to everyone else on the field.

There are umpires out there, just like coaches, that think they can overrule their fellow umpire. And any and every time that happens, the game goes to hell, sooner or later, as one umpire wants to substitute his judgment for the other umpire's judgment. Soon, every judgment call is being questioned; and we are no longer playing softball, the issue becomes which coach can push the envelope further.

You are correct when you say the game is not about the umpires, the coaches, or the parents. But is also isn't about the kids, either; that is simply the most often repeated mantra of those that cannot or will not think beyond that, and want things their way. The integrity of the game itself is the most important concern all should have; you can still teach quality life lessons to those kids when human error happens.

Teach them that human beings make mistakes; teach them that they need to have the internal strength and fortitude to overcome human mistakes, rather than blame others. Teach them that life isn't always fair, and that the outcome of any part of their life, just like a game, can often be subject to things they don't like or agree with, and simply cannot control. Teach them that a softball game (ANY GAME) isn't life or death; teach them that losing a game may not be as much fun as winning, but it is still just a game.

It may not be who you are; I don't know you. But I do know, in my 44th year in this game, that too many coaches and parents seem more focused on the outcome of a game, and their ability to CONTROL, rather than the life lessons that the game represents. And when the game has no integrity because the parties think there are no rules, manners, respect, or proper protocol, then it has nothing for "the kids". That's a mantra, not an ethic.

As I suggested in an earlier reply, I would be more open to revisiting umpire judgment when the coaches agree to replay their decision with the umpires when they make a stupid coaching mistake.

Mountain Coach: I'm not talking about obvious help situations like you described. I should have been more broad, like Steve replied, in that I meant the coaches who yell the request on every play. I should have worded that a bit better.

And to my point earlier, a coach yelling "ask for help, ask for help" is not a proper appeal.

Thanks. Very good reply and good points. I'm definitely not one of those win-at-all-costs type coaches. And yes, the integrity of the game is paramount and should be taught to the kids. And feel free to say "Hey stupid, why did you do that?" anytime you like. LOL.

It should be noted that there is a protocol as to when and how one umpire may help another.

I don't know that it is the Umpires that think this......I think it is the coaches that have determined that they have the right to "ask for help" on any call they don't like.....

Actually, that's just half the problem. The other half are umpires who believe it's better to acquiesce to those coaches to "keep the peace" than to tell those coaches to pound sand. Amazes me when my partner will come to me and say, "I'm not going to change my call, but I'm just here to make the coach think I'm getting help." I want to tell him/her, "Go back to your position and stop wasting daylight."

Mostly baseball umpire here, but this question can easily be applied at the softball level. I have always been taught by my instructors at the level I've worked (youth and HS JV, plus HS varsity level tournaments), that there is a particular rule of thumb when it comes to bang-bang plays.

I've been told that if you have a bang-bang play that you read what happened, and that if the fielder made a diving stop or a long range throw, you bang the kid out and reward the defense. But if the runner is hustling butt down the line and/or the fielder bobbles the ball and makes it a much closer play than it should be, then you reward the offense and call the runner safe. I'm talking about just plays at first base.

Have most of you other umpers been taught the same thing, or is this just something that is taught in my state? And if you have been taught, do you agree with that philosophy? Or do you have the philosophy that you make the call based on what you saw, no matter if the fielder made a great play or bobbled the ball 3 times before making the throw to first. I'm just curious what you guys think about it. Thanks, I'll hang up and listen.

I have heard people say that.

This usually tells me that the person is comfortable with the idea that he/she is unable to determine what happens first on a bang bang play. And it usually shows in the rest of their umpiring.

I have never understood why people continue to add or subtract things from an otherwise easy task. It's really simple... Decide which happened first and rule accordingly. Adding other things to judge or grade generally make you worse at your job.

"make the call based on what you saw" !!

Coaches & fans reward players.

Not sure if you mean comfortable with inability or uncomfortable with their own judgement.

And caring too much about spectator perception. :rolleyes:

Yes. All of that.

Yes, I've heard this taught before and dismissed it then just as I would now. Rewarding a player for making it close is only not in the rule book, it is wrong..

BTW, if the player didn't execute the out, it must not have been that great a play, was it?

Call what you see.

Hell no. Don't call what the team "deserves". Call what you see. Call what happens. Get it right.

For example, if a catcher sets up low and away, and the pitch comes in belly-button high on the inside corner, and F2 misses it....guess what! THATS STILL A STRIKE! Don't bail out on the right call just because the players make it look bad.

Edit to add: That said, I will occasionally "sell" an out after a great defensive play even if the overhand out isn't required. That's the only way I "reward" a great athletic play. (And I only do this because a high-level evaluator suggested it after I "robotically" called an out on a great layout catch + obvious double-up live-ball appeal on the catch.)

Doesn't the runner who busts it down the line to beat the throw deserve the EXACT SAME amount of consideration as the fielder who makes a great play?

I believe the "reward the player who wanted it more" philosophy has gone the way of the neighborhood play at second base on a double play. That used to be something that was taught years ago, at least in my experience, but is no longer endorsed by those who believe we need to make the right call, not the deserved call.

Besides, where do you draw the line? Sharp grounder to F5, who deflects it to F6. F6 grabs it with her bare hand, and guns it to first. Do we reward the defense for F6's play, or the offense for F5's muff? None of that should come into consideration.