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-   -   unsportsmanlike act (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/101344-unsportsmanlike-act.html)

jmkupka Mon May 16, 2016 01:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKBUmp (Post 987587)
Exactly how are they deceiving the runner? The rule lookback rule clearly states they cannot leave the base when the pitcher is in possession of the ball within the circle. Lets use another example. Runner on 2, pitcher with ball in circle, F5 leaves 3rd and runs into circle to tell pitcher something. Runner sees 3rd uncovered and takes off. You going to consider that deceiving the runner? The runners must be aware of the situation, if the pitcher has the ball in the circle they cannot leave the base.

Reverse it, pitcher and catcher go back to the circle but catcher has the ball. Are you going to call time and protect the defense because they were stupid?
The difference, as I've seen explained, is that F2 will almost always ask for time before going to talk to F1 (F5 wouldn't do that), so the one time she doesn't (with runner on 3B) could only be interpreted as a deceptive act.

Please note: everything that is good about my umpiring skills and rule interpreting, I have learned from this forum (and experience). I wouldn't have been prepared to make this ruling if I hadn't seen it here first. :)

chapmaja Mon May 16, 2016 01:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka (Post 987593)
The difference, as I've seen explained, is that F2 will almost always ask for time before going to talk to F1 (F5 wouldn't do that), so the one time she doesn't (with runner on 3B) could only be interpreted as a deceptive act.

Please note: everything that is good about my umpiring skills and rule interpreting, I have learned from this forum (and experience). I wouldn't have been prepared to make this ruling if I hadn't seen it here first. :)
I have to disagree wit you that they almost always ask for time. It really depends on the situation of the play. Sometimes they do ask for time, otherwise they don't. Since the ball is in possession of the pitcher in the circle, there is already a rule prohibiting the runners from advancing.

Now where I might say it is a deceitful act is if the catcher calls all the infielders into the circle without calling time to have a meeting, and the offense, thinking times has been called has a runner step off the base to talk to a coach, only to have the fielders run out of the circle to tag the runners off base.

jmkupka Mon May 16, 2016 01:16pm
This situation was a little different, as F1 & F2 started out close to the plate (forget why), and walked together to the circle. I was watching this play out, and I'm certain they were ready to pounce the second R1 left the base...

Rich Ives Mon May 16, 2016 01:53pm
Why do so many people think dekes are illegal?

AtlUmpSteve Mon May 16, 2016 08:00pm
ASA, by case play ruling, directs the umpire to call time when the catcher gores to the circle without calling time. NFHS generally follows ASA interps if not ruled on by them. NCAA directs umpires to NOT call time if not requested; but this play hasn't been run in recent years at that level due to timing violation rules.

So, if time isn't requested, nor granted, are you prepared to call a timing violation and award a ball to the batter?

CecilOne Mon May 16, 2016 08:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 987628)
ASA, by case play ruling, directs the umpire to call time when the catcher gores to the circle without calling time.
Thank you for something I did not know. :cool:

Dakota Tue May 17, 2016 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 987569)
Off the top of my head, here are two plays that my state high school association has ruled as unsportsmanlike:

Play 1: With less than two outs and a runner on base, the BR is retired at first on a force play. The defense, in a planned manner, runs off the field as if it was the third out, including F3 rolling the ball into the circle. The runner on base, then tries to advance, only to have the defense ready with a player designated to be at the appropriate base and other one to pick up the ball...
If this play works, I suppose the PIAA would have you rule dead ball, return the runner, and some type of warning and/or ejection?

OK, but what if the play does not work and the runner scores? Is it still ruled unsportsmanlike, and the runner returned?

Big Slick Tue May 17, 2016 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota (Post 987639)
If this play works, I suppose the PIAA would have you rule dead ball, return the runner, and some type of warning and/or ejection?

OK, but what if the play does not work and the runner scores? Is it still ruled unsportsmanlike, and the runner returned?
Very good question, and I'm not really sure how to answer. Trick plays were en vogue a few years ago, but not so much now. It has been awhile since they were discussed, I would say about 5 years.

I'm certain of the warning, but not so much on "letting it play out."

jmkupka Tue May 17, 2016 12:51pm
Can't see how we couldn't let it play out... we know there's not 3 outs, runner knows there's not 3 outs, and what DC would ever complain that their trick play (that blew up in their face) should be retracted?

tcannizzo Wed May 18, 2016 08:49am
Here's one.
R1 on 1B steals on pitch, with no throw from F2, except back to F1.
F6 tells R1 that it was a foul ball causing R1 to leave the base.
The pitch was not fouled.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed May 18, 2016 08:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tcannizzo (Post 987659)
Here's one.
R1 on 1B steals on pitch, with no throw from F2, except back to F1.
F6 tells R1 that it was a foul ball causing R1 to leave the base.
The pitch was not fouled.

First, F6 has committed Obstruction. Second, I would say that it would be a very long stretch to consider F6's actions unsportsmanlike.

MTD, Sr.

chapmaja Wed May 18, 2016 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 987660)
First, F6 has committed Obstruction. Second, I would say that it would be a very long stretch to consider F6's actions unsportsmanlike.

MTD, Sr.
How is it a long stretch to say what F6 did was unsportsmanlike. She committed an act that was not in the spirit of fair play. Would I eject on the first offense? That is very unlikely since this is also a case of verbal obstruction, so there is already an applied penalty.

IRISHMAFIA Wed May 18, 2016 11:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 987660)
First, F6 has committed Obstruction. Second, I would say that it would be a very long stretch to consider F6's actions unsportsmanlike.

MTD, Sr.
No longer a stretch than the OBS call. The runner has coaches, most of probably do not play SS for the opposition. If the runner is dumb enough to pay attention to F6, that is just a DMR.

youngump Wed May 18, 2016 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 987660)
First, F6 has committed Obstruction. Second, I would say that it would be a very long stretch to consider F6's actions unsportsmanlike.

MTD, Sr.
Sure but the look back rule isn't an exception to the obstruction rule so she's still out ;-)


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