Help from my Partner
 

Early in a Varsity contest. Bang bang play at first. Coach politely asks me to talk to my partner and our Association policy is to get together (even if just to pacify the coach). I go to my veteran partner and ask him if I blew the call. Short answer--"Yes" ... I ask if he is 100% certain... same answer.

What would you do?

First, that is not the question I would have asked.

Second, getting together just because the coach does not like the call is a bad policy.

Were YOU sure of the call? Did you have a good look? Were you in position and set?

It is your judgement call and the coach does not get to shop the crew for a judgement he likes.

Ask the coach if he saw something that you might have missed (e.g. pulled foot, etc.)

If so, ask your partner if he saw the same thing (pulled foot).

If the coach merely thinks his player was safe (for example) because he disagrees with your judgement, and your association requires you to get together to placate the coach, and you were on top of the call and made it according to your judgment, then have your show-conference, but tell your partner you had the call and unless he saw something specific, you are sticking with it. If your partner is the veteran you say he is, he will understand.

How have the members of your association allowed such an absurd policy?

What Dakota said. 100% correct on all points

Your association's policy sucks! :eek:

ditto.

No one has answered the question directly. What would you DO now that your veteran partner (btw, I am a "veteran" too::cool:) has provided positive information that you missed the call?

If it is a judgement call, it stands.

If you absolutely know that you got it wrong (with or without input from your partner), you can say, "Coach, I just kicked that call from here to kingdom come, but there is nothing we can do about it, except to play ball."

Refer to the Jim Joyce call.

If my association had such a foolish rule and I had to talk to my partner if the coach asked, I would likely inquire if he had seen any hot moms. Then after a couple of seconds, we would confirm the original call and get on with the game.

If I were on the bases and something happened that I had doubts about (pulled foot, dropped ball etc...) then I would be interested in my partner's view.

What rule would you cite to support changing the call? That your partner disagreed with your judgment in a call that the mechanics make your call?

Nope, changing the count, too; I know I called that pitch a strike, but my base umpire says it should be a ball from where he's standing! Yeah, we can make that foul ball fair, now, too.

I would make the decision to either reverse my call or have it stand...most likely the latter.

[QUOTE=Nope, changing the count, too; I know I called that pitch a strike, but my base umpire says it should be a ball from where he's standing! Yeah, we can make that foul ball fair, now, too.[/QUOTE]

Partner told me of an occasion where he was PU, line drive over F3's head, curving foul... as it passes over F3, BU in "B" distinctly hears the ball tic off her mitt (well inside fair territory). PU does not. Calls "Foul ball". (More senior) BU insists this can be corrected, and places runner and B/R where he thinks they should be.
Your thoughts?

Can it be? Yes, but only if PU requests the information from the BU.

Should it be? No

Cannot be changed in NCAA; by rule, once called foul, it must remain foul no matter what.

In my opinion, the only times anyone should consider that correction in a rule set that allows it is if the ball hits the base or foul pole, and is fair by rule (as opposed to judgment). Then it is a rule misapplication, which should be corrected.

I don't think I understand the distinction. Isn't a ball which hits a fielders glove in flight in fair territory fair by rule? What makes thinking it didn't hit the base an error of rule but thinking it didn't hit the glove an error of judgment.

A ball hitting a base (or pole), and ricocheting foul could (incorrectly) be called foul; this can be corrected.
PU not hearing the ball skip off F3's mitt, gotta live with that one...

Yes, I read what Steve wrote. I'm asking for the why behind it. Is it a matter of obviousness or is it a matter of the umpire believing the wrong rule or what? E.g., if it hits the mitt and I call it foul because I misunderstood the rule can I fix it?

If the PU hears/knows it hit the mitt, and knows that contact was over fair territory, and calls it foul; and when questioned by a coach admits all of the above, then it would be a misapplied rule that, on protest, would be changed by a UIC. Along those lines, then you should overturn your call, and apply a "jeopardy" decision on where to place runners. And in many, if not most cases, no one will agree with those decisions.

But to apply the same deal with a base umpire hears the contact, and the plate umpire somehow knows the contact he didn't see or hear was over fair territory?? It better be one of those cases where the only person in the park that doesn't know it was touched over fair is the plate umpire before you change that one. I mean, REALLY obvious to everyone that the change is "getting it right", because you may well have to eat a lot of crap and/or eject a coach over the overturn.

I had this a couple years ago. R1 on 1st, Ball is hit with a ton of spin near first base. F3 attempts to make a play on the ball and it hits off the glove in fair territory before rolling foul in front of 1st base. My PU does not make a call, F3 picks up the ball and tags B2 coming down the line. R1 thinks the ball is foul and comes back to first. . After the tag, F3 goes over and tags R1, who is still standing on 1b.

After all of this happens, the PU finally calls foul ball. What the heck do we do now? The foul ball call was not made until all that action happened.

What we did was get together and discuss it. We ended up ruling the ball fair, with B2 out on the tag and R1 safe at first (force was removed when B2 was tagged). The reason we went with this call was that I was sure the entire playing action had finished prior to the ball's position being determined by the plate umpire.

In all of that, the only argument was from the defensive coach, who wanted a double play called for the tag on R1.

Here is the situation I had in an ASA Qualifier a few years ago. I am the tournament UIC and saw this play.

Three umpire crew, no runners on base. F5 is playing up anticipating a bunt.
Batter swings and hits a ground ball at F5, she reaches down to field it, ball goes through her legs and rolls foul prior to reaching third base. PU calls FOUL. Offensive coach comes out and says that F5 touched the ball in fair territory so it should be a fair ball, requests PU ask his partners for help. PU gets crew together, U3 tells PU that the ball was touched by F5 over fair territory. PU reverses call and awards batter first base.

Defensive coach wants to protest the changing of the call from foul to fair, I am called to the field. After conferring with the crew to determine what happened and exactly what was called, I inform the coach that there is nothing to protest as the PU simply reversed his judgement call after seeking input from partners.

During the post game, I informed PU that he should have politely declined the initial request to get help as he was sure that the ball was not touched and was foul.

I have no problem with what your PU did, he got it correct. Shit happens and we cover the angles the best as possible.

This was exactly the case for my partner and me a number of years ago - everybody at the field, both coaches, everybody - except P heard the line shot tick off the glove of F5 in fair territory. We scored the runner from second base and placed the b-r on second base. (The ball had deflected down the left field line into foul territory.) Very little grief as I recall, and everyone stayed in the game.

The following spring, I gave the situation to Merle Butler at our state ASA clinic, and he said it was probably the best we could do with a difficult situation.

Sorry to revive an old situation, but this is almost twilight zone material.
I posted the above-mentioned hypothetical in April, and had make the call this weekend.

Bases loaded, hard shot down the 3d base line. By the time I caught sight of it, it was beyond the leaping F5 and hooking foul. "Foul Ball!".

Everyone but me heard (or saw) the ball hit her glove. Surprisingly-patient BC asked me to consult with my BU, who verified this.

I knew I was gonna take a load of s**t, but I made the decision to give everyone 2 bases (could've easily been a bases-clearing double).

Guys, would this survive a protest? I gotta know... I've already put on 10lbs from the crap I had to eat because of this.

Once you call foul it is foul. Where do you find the authority to award bases on a dead ball in this situation?

He apparently reversed the foul call, and then used Rule 10 to place the runners after the call reversal.

You made a judgement call. Went to your partner for additional information which led you to reverse your judgement call. You placed runners according to your judgement. Basically, what you have here is a judgement call and judgement calls are not subject to protest.

As a tournament UIC, I had this same situation in a game, coach wanted to protest, I would not allow the protest.

Why is this different from asking your partner for help on a pulled foot/swipe tag, and then reversing your call based on the information provided?

Except in NCAA, where, by rule, that foul call cannot be changed, under any circumstance.

I can't answer that last question with credentials, but other than NCAA probably ok in a protest; not a rule issue.

All through rereading this topic, I keep thinking that the plate is the hardest place to hear anything. Surrounded by dugouts and spectators.

Didn't we just see that happen in a regional game this year?