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-   -   Base Umpire 2 man (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/100913-base-umpire-2-man.html)

SWFLguy Thu Feb 18, 2016 08:08am
Base Umpire 2 man
 
Just curious. A while ago I read in here (I think) about some organizations using a mechanic where the base umpire starts in the so-called B slot, even when there is no one on base. As I am nearing the end of my umpiring career, I thought I'd give it a try in the JV games that I am getting these days. I like it a lot. It saves a lot of my energy for situations that require me to have to move more quickly. Most of my calls at 1st are quite routine and I'm right in position to call them w/o having to move much. Has anyone else tried it or (perish the thought that we change anything) adopted it?

CecilOne Thu Feb 18, 2016 08:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWFLguy (Post 981407)
Just curious. A while ago I read in here (I think) about some organizations using a mechanic where the base umpire starts in the so-called B slot, even when there is no one on base. As I am nearing the end of my umpiring career, I thought I'd give it a try in the JV games that I am getting these days. I like it a lot. It saves a lot of my energy for situations that require me to have to move more quickly. Most of my calls at 1st are quite routine and I'm right in position to call them w/o having to move much. Has anyone else tried it or (perish the thought that we change anything) adopted it?
It was adopted for SP by ASA; and possibly later reversed.

tcannizzo Thu Feb 18, 2016 09:02am
I have used it in FP, especially during summer showcase tournaments where we were doing 6-7 games in a day. Of course, I discussed it in pre-game with partner to make sure they didn't have a problem with it. Called it my modified base mechanics for survival mode.

It definitely is an energy saver, not having to get back all the way over to A.:cool:

Big Slick Thu Feb 18, 2016 09:18am
That is still an ASA 2 umpire slow pitch mechanic.

At one time, it was an optimal mechanic for NCAA two umpire. It is no longer an option in NCAA.

AtlUmpSteve Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:02pm
My opinion is that, while it is a real step-saver, it effectively writes off any realistic possibility of monitoring illegal pitches related to contact with the pitcher's plate; either the stride foot not in contact with the back, or the pivot foot sliding off the front. So, effective only if 1) all pitchers are completely legal relative to those issues, or 2) the showcase you are working doesn't want those called even if they exist.

youngump Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 981463)
My opinion is that, while it is a real step-saver, it effectively writes off any realistic possibility of monitoring illegal pitches related to contact with the pitcher's plate; either the stride foot not in contact with the back, or the pivot foot sliding off the front. So, effective only if 1) all pitchers are completely legal relative to those issues, or 2) the showcase you are working doesn't want those called even if they exist.
But then you have the same effect when you have runners on, no?

IRISHMAFIA Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump (Post 981468)
But then you have the same effect when you have runners on, no?
Correct, which is why many pitchers who cheat will adjust their footwork once a runner reaches 1B

SWFLguy Thu Feb 18, 2016 05:28pm
Like I said, these are JV games. The girls are lucky if they know how to pitch at all, let alone be able to change their style based on where the base umpire is positioned. If I didn't have health issues and was working top level high school varsity games, college ball or men's ASA, I don't think I'd be doing this.

CecilOne Thu Feb 18, 2016 05:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 981418)
That is still an ASA 2 umpire slow pitch mechanic.

At one time, it was an optimal mechanic for NCAA two umpire. It is no longer an option in NCAA.
Oh, it was NCAA I was thinking about, forgetting I don't care anymore.

ASA/NYSSOBLUE Thu Feb 18, 2016 08:55pm
ASA tried that mechanic for Modified FP about....a long time ago- 25 years or so. Only lasted at most a couple of years.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWFLguy (Post 981525)
Like I said, these are JV games. The girls are lucky if they know how to pitch at all, let alone be able to change their style based on where the base umpire is positioned. If I didn't have health issues and was working top level high school varsity games, college ball or men's ASA, I don't think I'd be doing this.
Never said it had to be intentional.

Insane Blue Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:56am
It is still an optional Mechanic for men's ball in NAFA

SNIPERBBB Fri Feb 19, 2016 07:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane Blue (Post 981570)
It is still an optional Mechanic for men's ball in NAFA
What's NAFA? Only NAFA I know of is north American Fur Auctions

Andy Fri Feb 19, 2016 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE (Post 981552)
ASA tried that mechanic for Modified FP about....a long time ago- 25 years or so. Only lasted at most a couple of years.
It was late 90's/early 2000's and it was being championed by a certain member of the National Umpire Staff at that time. To the best of my recollection, the other members of the NUS weren't too keen on it and is slowly faded away.

I'm not surprised it is optional for NAFA as I believe that same former NUS member with ASA is now involved with NAFA.

CecilOne Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy (Post 981594)
It was late 90's/early 2000's and it was being championed by a certain member of the National Umpire Staff at that time.
Was that the MP position intended to see the pitcher's arm better, to catch sidearm deliveries?

Dakota Fri Feb 19, 2016 09:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy (Post 981594)
It was late 90's/early 2000's and it was being championed by a certain member of the National Umpire Staff at that time. To the best of my recollection, the other members of the NUS weren't too keen on it and is slowly faded away.

I'm not surprised it is optional for NAFA as I believe that same former NUS member with ASA is now involved with NAFA.
I should also come as no surprise that it is still an accepted alternative in all girls fastpitch sanctioning organizations in that former NUS member's home state! ;)

AtlUmpSteve Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy (Post 981594)
It was late 90's/early 2000's and it was being championed by a certain member of the National Umpire Staff at that time. To the best of my recollection, the other members of the NUS weren't too keen on it and is slowly faded away.

I'm not surprised it is optional for NAFA as I believe that same former NUS member with ASA is now involved with NAFA.
That said, he (BP) was an exceptional clinician, he just didn't toe the line in the "one size fits all when we teach 50,000 umpires" philosophy. I can say without hesitation I learned a great deal from him, among others (some more generally accepted, some less). BP wasn't ashamed to talk about advanced mechanics for advanced umpires, when that was considered an unacceptable heresy.

And, as I recall, he had both hip and knee issues, and was dedicated to adopting mechanics with less physical demands. We endorse the EA suggestion that all mechanics are trade-offs, yet some mechanics aren't accepted when they benefit certain groups.

Again, I don't like this one, because I don't agree with that what is lost is less important to the game. But I do support making adjustments that are advantageous, even if not "the manual" or the "DVD".

ASA/NYSSOBLUE Sat Feb 20, 2016 08:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne (Post 981613)
Was that the MP position intended to see the pitcher's arm better, to catch sidearm deliveries?
That's what we were told...

IRISHMAFIA Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 981671)
That said, he (BP) was an exceptional clinician, he just didn't toe the line in the "one size fits all when we teach 50,000 umpires" philosophy. I can say without hesitation I learned a great deal from him, among others (some more generally accepted, some less). BP wasn't ashamed to talk about advanced mechanics for advanced umpires, when that was considered an unacceptable heresy.
BP often stated that the ASA shouldn't have an Advance Umpire School, but a School for Advanced Umpiring. While that is ideal, HP has also been correct in that there needs to be a standard for all umpires, from top to bottom. And IMO that is a logical stance.

We have all witnessed how umpires, like players, will take a stance on certain mechanics and use them regardless of the ability of the crew which s/he is a member. Once heard an umpire tell his novice partner for an JO game that he would be using his NCAA mechanics for the game because he believed moving back to ASA mechanics would throw off those used for college ball. Boys and girls, that just does not always work out well.


Quote:
And, as I recall, he had both hip and knee issues, and was dedicated to adopting mechanics with less physical demands. We endorse the EA suggestion that all mechanics are trade-offs, yet some mechanics aren't accepted when they benefit certain groups.
Seems to me the mechanics should be adopted to the game, not the umpires' ease in performance. That was a major point of the highly debated issue when ASA announced the move o the BU off the line in the SP game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE (Post 981680)
That's what we were told...
Did you buy that claim? Seems to me to have such an advantage, the BU would have to be right up the middle on the pitching arm's side.

SE Minnestoa Re Sat Feb 20, 2016 03:30pm
My NCAA association tried it for a couple of years. It was dispensed of and we went back to working at A unless there is a base runner.

ASA/NYSSOBLUE Sat Feb 20, 2016 05:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 981709)
BP often stated that the ASA shouldn't have an Advance Umpire School, but a School for Advanced Umpiring. While that is ideal, HP has also been correct in that there needs to be a standard for all umpires, from top to bottom. And IMO that is a logical stance.

We have all witnessed how umpires, like players, will take a stance on certain mechanics and use them regardless of the ability of the crew which s/he is a member. Once heard an umpire tell his novice partner for an JO game that he would be using his NCAA mechanics for the game because he believed moving back to ASA mechanics would throw off those used for college ball. Boys and girls, that just does not always work out well.


Seems to me the mechanics should be adopted to the game, not the umpires' ease in performance. That was a major point of the highly debated issue when ASA announced the move o the BU off the line in the SP game.





Did you buy that claim? Seems to me to have such an advantage, the BU would have to be right up the middle on the pitching arm's side.
100% of our men's ball is MP of various stripes - it really did not work out, so when they changed back,we breathed a sigh of relief.

Now as far as teaching of different mechanics is concerned, coming from The Land of the Rimming as I do, I can't comment without prejudice. Especially since our little HS school group has in it : three past or present clinicians at the NYS State school, one of whom is the author of our state manual, and another who is the NYS UIC. They all help conduct our new officials clinic, which I sometimes assist at. So I get that hammered into me ALL the time.

CecilOne Sat Feb 20, 2016 09:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 981709)
Seems to me to have such an advantage, the BU would have to be right up the middle on the pitching arm's side.
Pretty much, either side of 2nd depending on lefty or righty. :rolleyes:

Insane Blue Sun Feb 21, 2016 01:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB (Post 981576)
What's NAFA? Only NAFA I know of is north American Fur Auctions
North American Fast-pitch Assosiation


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