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-   -   OBS: Runner initiates non-malicious contact - Ignore or warn? (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/100250-obs-runner-initiates-non-malicious-contact-ignore-warn.html)

teebob21 Mon Oct 26, 2015 05:07pm

OBS: Runner initiates non-malicious contact - Ignore or warn?
 
Situation: Fall ball exhibition game, NCAA team vs. NAIA team. R1 on 1B, 2 out, BR hits a long fly ball to right-center. R1 seems to forget the outs and hesitates near 2B, eventually comes home.

The play is not close. The F2 positions herself 5 feet or so up the 3B line, on the line. The ball is still 10+ feet away, coming from center field and we have a train wreck. The runner slid, but did so in a way that I judged was intended to create contact. I know, HTBT, but she turned her upper body during the slide so her shoulder would contact the catcher's hip/torso area. The ball goes to the backstop. I did not judge any MC or USC, but the catcher was not in the act of catching and definitely impeded the runner even had there been no contact. I signal OBS, and R1 scores safely.

As a game management question: at this level, is a team warning warranted for a runner initiating avoidable contact like this?

AtlUmpSteve Mon Oct 26, 2015 05:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 968564)
Situation: Fall ball exhibition game, NCAA team vs. NAIA team. R1 on 1B, 2 out, BR hits a long fly ball to right-center. R1 seems to forget the outs and hesitates near 2B, eventually comes home.

The play is not close. The F2 positions herself 5 feet or so up the 3B line, on the line. The ball is still 10+ feet away, coming from center field and we have a train wreck. The runner slid, but did so in a way that I judged was intended to create contact. I know, HTBT, but she turned her upper body during the slide so her shoulder would contact the catcher's hip/torso area. The ball goes to the backstop. I did not judge any MC or USC, but the catcher was not in the act of catching and definitely impeded the runner even had there been no contact. I signal OBS, and R1 scores safely.

As a game management question: at this level, is a team warning warranted for a runner initiating avoidable contact like this?

My opinion, no; unless there was enough commentary started that you wanted to use that to regain control. Team warnings at that level need to be for actual offenses, not you coming off as telling them how to coach their team.

That said, assuming I knew the coaches, I might (in fall ball or scrimmage setting ONLY) suggest in a private and not-overly-obvious manner to both sets of coaches that 1) sure would be a shame to lose a catcher for a year roaming up the baseline without being in the act of catching ball, and 2) sure would hate life if an injury or multi-game suspension resulted from a completely unnecessary and avoidable contact. If you have the personality to pull that off, not as telling them their job. Then let the coaches do the team management thing.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Oct 26, 2015 08:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 968565)
My opinion, no; unless there was enough commentary started that you wanted to use that to regain control. Team warnings at that level need to be for actual offenses, not you coming off as telling them how to coach their team.

That said, assuming I knew the coaches, I might (in fall ball or scrimmage setting ONLY) suggest in a private and not-overly-obvious manner to both sets of coaches that 1) sure would be a shame to lose a catcher for a year roaming up the baseline without being in the act of catching ball, and 2) sure would hate life if an injury or multi-game suspension resulted from a completely unnecessary and avoidable contact. If you have the personality to pull that off, not as telling them their job. Then let the coaches do the team management thing.


Steve:

I couldn't have better myself. I would also like to add that the philosophy that you promote in your post can be applied to similar situations in other sports.

MTD, Sr.

teebob21 Tue Oct 27, 2015 01:11pm

Steve, thanks for the feedback. I did talk to the offensive coach in the manner you describe. The catcher was shaken up on the play, so while she collected herself, I met the coach halfway down the 3B line and quietly pointed out that the play was definitely OBS, but her runner could be the injured one next time if she initiates the contact like that every time.

Coach's response, with a smile: "Yeah, if she'd just learn how to run the damn bases this wouldn't be a problem."

I posted here for the board's opinion because my partner asked in postgame if I had issued team warnings. I had not. I didn't feel like it was warranted at that point, but I have limited experience so far at this level, and luckily haven't yet had to flex my game management muscles.

IRISHMAFIA Tue Oct 27, 2015 03:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 968564)
Situation: Fall ball exhibition game, NCAA team vs. NAIA team. R1 on 1B, 2 out, BR hits a long fly ball to right-center. R1 seems to forget the outs and hesitates near 2B, eventually comes home.

The play is not close. The F2 positions herself 5 feet or so up the 3B line, on the line. The ball is still 10+ feet away, coming from center field and we have a train wreck. The runner slid, but did so in a way that I judged was intended to create contact. I know, HTBT, but she turned her upper body during the slide so her shoulder would contact the catcher's hip/torso area. The ball goes to the backstop. I did not judge any MC or USC, but the catcher was not in the act of catching and definitely impeded the runner even had there been no contact. I signal OBS, and R1 scores safely.

As a game management question: at this level, is a team warning warranted for a runner initiating avoidable contact like this?

I agree with Steve, but would love a better description of the "slide".

CecilOne Tue Oct 27, 2015 04:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 968643)
I agree with Steve, but would love a better description of the "slide".

Especially that far from the plate and high enough to contact hip/torso.

teebob21 Tue Oct 27, 2015 05:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 968643)
I agree with Steve, but would love a better description of the "slide".

I will see what I can do. I am almost to 3BLX, moving from point of plate.

Catcher is in an "athletic position" awaiting the ball: feet shoulder width apart on the foul line, hips back, head up, hands low. She is 5-6 feet or so from the plate.

R1 rounds third a few feet into foul territory (not very wide), and is running just barely in foul ground the last 30 feet to home. R1 begins her slide just before reaching F2. Her feet and hips pass F2 cleanly as she goes to the ground. As she began to pass F2, she raised her left shoulder and arm to draw contact with F2. Contact was made in the ribs/hips area with F2, knocking her down. The contact was made roughly at the same instant the slide happened, i.e., just as she hit the dirt with her backside. The best way to describe the motion would be R1 pivoting at the waist to face the 3B stands while sliding, raising the shoulder into F2.

Feet clear past F2 like this example pic, but with contact and a raised left shoulder. Imagine that #24 rotates the upper body to the right to face more to the camera. Contact is 5 feet from the plate.
https://t1.ftcdn.net/jpg/00/05/62/20...ivmqwgfoh5.jpg

Sorry if this is unclear or repeats itself. Keep in mind all of this happens in maybe a quarter second, and my eyes are on F2 as I try to position for what is likely to be a swipe tag. I saw the contact with central vision, but the rest of the play was in the peripheral vision and I may have missed a detail. The slide wasn't dirty, but it didn't look too clean either.

IRISHMAFIA Tue Oct 27, 2015 09:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 968647)

R1 rounds third a few feet into foul territory (not very wide), and is running just barely in foul ground the last 30 feet to home. R1 begins her slide just before reaching F2. Her feet and hips pass F2 cleanly as she goes to the ground. As she began to pass F2, she raised her left shoulder and arm to draw contact with F2. Contact was made in the ribs/hips area with F2, knocking her down. The contact was made roughly at the same instant the slide happened, i.e., just as she hit the dirt with her backside. The best way to describe the motion would be R1 pivoting at the waist to face the 3B stands while sliding, raising the shoulder into F2.

Feet clear past F2 like this example pic, but with contact and a raised left shoulder. Imagine that #24 rotates the upper body to the right to face more to the camera. Contact is 5 feet from the plate.
https://t1.ftcdn.net/jpg/00/05/62/20...ivmqwgfoh5.jpg

Sorry if this is unclear or repeats itself. Keep in mind all of this happens in maybe a quarter second, and my eyes are on F2 as I try to position for what is likely to be a swipe tag. I saw the contact with central vision, but the rest of the play was in the peripheral vision and I may have missed a detail. The slide wasn't dirty, but it didn't look too clean either.

Having a hard time envisioning #24 making serious contact with any part of the body if facing away from the catcher.

Big Slick Wed Oct 28, 2015 08:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 968647)
I will see what I can do. I am almost to 3BLX, moving from point of plate.

Is this 2 umpires or 3?

As you described, you should not be in this position for this play.

If this is two umpires, you should be moving from a holding zone back to the plate.

If this is a 3 umpire game, this ball should have been chased by U3 and then the above applies.

Point of Plate mechanic is very difficult to use for 2 umpire as you have responsibility at third on R1. Furthermore, 3BLX is reserved for swipe tag with the throw up the third base line (according to you, the ball was coming from center field).

teebob21 Wed Oct 28, 2015 12:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 968649)
Having a hard time envisioning #24 making serious contact with any part of the body if facing away from the catcher.

That's the problem with a stock photo, it's a poor representation. Imagine #24 with the opposite buttcheek on the ground, and a torso turned to hit the F2 with the left elbow/shoulder at full sliding speed. For clarity, my play did not involve a thrown elbow...again, just for representation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Slick (Post 968657)
Is this 2 umpires or 3?

As you described, you should not be in this position for this play.

If this is two umpires, you should be moving from a holding zone back to the plate.

If this is a 3 umpire game, this ball should have been chased by U3 and then the above applies.

Point of Plate mechanic is very difficult to use for 2 umpire as you have responsibility at third on R1. Furthermore, 3BLX is reserved for swipe tag with the throw up the third base line (according to you, the ball was coming from center field).

2-man (grumble, grumble, cheap schools, grumble). The holding zone is not a calling position. Neither is POP. I drifted towards the holding zone as I watched the ball bounce off the right-center wall into CF. As I was moving to a primary position at 3B, I saw there was no chance of either a play or OBS at 3B and the runner would try to score, so I returned to the plate to make the call. Rightly or wrongly, I was where I was, and I had a good look at it with all the elements in front of me. I did check the CCA book for 2-man just to be sure, and page 314 shows what I did almost exactly.

The throw was from center, and it was up the 3B line by several feet. Not sure why 3BLX wouldn't be the correct NCAA mechanic here. Open to hearing any feedback on that.

Regardless, aggressive-but-not-malicious contact was made on the slide.

MD Longhorn Thu Oct 29, 2015 02:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by teebob21 (Post 968647)
I will see what I can do. I am almost to 3BLX, moving from point of plate.

Catcher is in an "athletic position" awaiting the ball: feet shoulder width apart on the foul line, hips back, head up, hands low. She is 5-6 feet or so from the plate.

R1 rounds third a few feet into foul territory (not very wide), and is running just barely in foul ground the last 30 feet to home. R1 begins her slide just before reaching F2. Her feet and hips pass F2 cleanly as she goes to the ground. As she began to pass F2, she raised her left shoulder and arm to draw contact with F2. Contact was made in the ribs/hips area with F2, knocking her down. The contact was made roughly at the same instant the slide happened, i.e., just as she hit the dirt with her backside. The best way to describe the motion would be R1 pivoting at the waist to face the 3B stands while sliding, raising the shoulder into F2.

Feet clear past F2 like this example pic, but with contact and a raised left shoulder. Imagine that #24 rotates the upper body to the right to face more to the camera. Contact is 5 feet from the plate.
https://t1.ftcdn.net/jpg/00/05/62/20...ivmqwgfoh5.jpg

Sorry if this is unclear or repeats itself. Keep in mind all of this happens in maybe a quarter second, and my eyes are on F2 as I try to position for what is likely to be a swipe tag. I saw the contact with central vision, but the rest of the play was in the peripheral vision and I may have missed a detail. The slide wasn't dirty, but it didn't look too clean either.

Honestly ... what did you expect the runner to do other than what we see here. This appears to be nothing.


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