Dead Ball or Out?
 

Batter bunts ball. Ball lands, in fair territory, 12 inches in front of batters box. With the batter's first step out of the box, her foot lands directly on top of the fair ball (her other foot is still inside the batter's box. The rule states one foot must come in contact with the ground completely outside the box for the batter to be considered "out of the box". Since the top of a fair ball is not the ground, what's the correct call? Is it a dead-ball (just as if she came in contact with a batted ball while still in the box) or do you have an "out" for contacting a live ball, in fair territory, while not in the box?

I think that the rule you quoted about "one foot on the ground completely out of the box" is the wrong rule. That's the rule about where the batter's feet can be at the moment the ball is batted (ie: when the bat contacts the ball).

That ship's already sailed. When this batter hit the ball she was (I assume) in a legal batting position, with no foot on the ground completely outside the box.

Now we have a batted ball over fair ground. When the batter stepped on it she contacted a fair batted ball outside of the batter's box. Dead ball, out.

I believe we have all come to terms with the difference between a discarded bat hitting the ball in fair territory (dead ball, out), and the ball hitting a discarded bat in fair territory (play on, ball live, bat is now part of the field).

So why don't we get the (similar) difference between a batted ball hitting a batter that is still in the batter's box (dead ball, foul ball), and a batter-runner that makes contact with a fair batted ball (dead ball, out), whether in the box, partially in the box or (obviously) out of the box?

It seems so simple, why is it an issue? Same in every rule set, and actually the same as baseball.

What are you trying to say?

He means to not overthink it like baseball people do. ;)

If a BR still in the box contacts a fair batted ball, I don't think the BR is out (see bold). Else, someone pour me more coffee.

That's close. If the BALL is in the box when it hits the batter (or the batter hits it), it's a foul ball... Doesn't matter where the rest of the batter is.

The OP is an out.

Cite the rule that supports your statement, please. I will cite 8.2-F(4) in ASA as calling the BR out (by making contact with a fair batted ball before reaching first base", and further state that the definition of Foul Ball (F) only covers a batted ball that touches the batter, NOT a batted ball that the BR contacts. Further 8.1-A makes that person a BR, no longer a batter, "as soon as the batter legally hits a fair ball"; fair without regard to being in or out of the batter's box.

So which rule can you cite that supports the BR initiating contact with a fair batted ball while still in the box creating a foul ball?

Same question as to CecilOne. What rule can you cite that supports the ball being in the batter's box (in fair territory) which the BR contacts being a foul ball?

No rule that I see supports that. The intent is that the batter may hit a ball into the batter's own body BEFORE the batter starts to run; that is a foul ball, irrespective of the batter's position in front or back of the batter's box, thus possibly in fair territory.

No rule supports the batter beginning to run (becoming a batter-runner) and the player initiating contact with the batted ball (that hasn't touched the player prior to starting to run), in fair territory (WHETHER IN OR OUT OF THE BATTER'S BOX) being anything but OUT!

Don't want to make that call? Admit no balls, not rule support. Or cite me a rule with that support.

You were good until the first four words in the last seven. She contacted a fair batted ball; the batter's box has no standing in this ruling.

Until/unless someone that I have challenged, or anyone, can find a rule to support that position.

I get where you're going with this. But in the OP the batter did actually contact the ball outside of the batter's box, so not only is that a statement of fact, it is the correct ruling!

I guess I'll cite 7.4.I...

This is really the first time I've ever seen the distinction made between batter (or BR) contacting the ball, versus ball contacting the batter, while at least one foot is still in the box.

The area in and around the BB in yesterday's games was like a sandy beach, and more than one bunted ball died directly where it hit the ground. And more than one batter contacted that fair batted ball on their first step, with their back foot still in the BB.

So my calls of "foul ball, foot still in the box" were incorrect in these cases?

That would be 7.4.J and refers to the batter, not a batter runner. It also clearly states (as Steve implied) that the ball hits the batter or any part of the batter's person or clothing. This rule is necessary to protect the batter being hit with a batted ball in the portion of the BB that is in fair territory.

Now go to 8.2.F.4. Did the BR make contact with a fair batted ball? According to the OP, that is what happened.

Wow... cannot believe I was falling for a "myth" all this time...

A current thread "Batted ball hits runner....or maybe not!" has a related thread down at the bottom, that deals with this exact play.

From 2003.

Not that that's relevant, but it's how long I've been misapplying this rule. I owe a lot of defenses a lot of outs.:(

BTW, I have a lot of umpires in my assoc. to educate as well...

I am also in the camp of the "newly enlightened".

Not that my memory is that great, but I don't recall ever seeing an umpire call a batter-runner out for contacting a ball while in the batter's box in fair territory; because sure as hell, there would be a coach wanting the explanation. Similarly, I don't ever recall a conversation about this topic with other umpires until seeing it here now (something that I would remember and have learned from).

It dawns on me how many other umpires are potentially misapplying this rule when they say something like "...int the box" (a phrase that I stopped using some time ago. But if one were to use a phrase, it would be better if it was something like "FOUL!, the ball hit the batter".

Clarification(s) please.
7.4.J refers to a pitched ball only, no? Would have no bearing on a batted ball.

8.2.F.4 seems to make ANY contact with B-R in fair territory an Out (no reference to batter's box).

BATTER-RUNNER: A player who has completed a turn at bat but has not yet been put out or reached first base.

Now "completed a turn at bat" implies that the ball has been put in play.
So, how can a player remain B after completing a turn at bat? Wouldn't this immediately change the status to BR? Of course, this would result in ANY contact with a batted ball an out (8.2.F.4), meaning you could never (or damn near) have a foul ball, which of course makes no sense.

I can easily go along with an interpretation applying the logic behind RS 24 Hitting the ball a second time, it makes sense. But I would be much more comfortable with something specific in the book to cover this.

The way I am reading the book, there are too many contradictions.
Help get me untangled please.:o

"ASA 2015, Page 86:

J. When any part of the batter's person or clothing is hit with a batted ball while the batter is in the batter's box and (FP) has few than two strikes."

Granted the FP notation is incorrect, but it refers to a batted ball.

Overthinking. Read 8.1.A

Common Sense: B lays down a crappy bunt right in front of home plate in fair territory. She knows she dead so she kicks it up the line. She does this while her back foot is still in the box. Are you going to let that go? "I understand your concern coach, but her back foot was still technically in the box." Would you allow to to strike the ball a second time? "I understand why you are upset coach, but her foot was in the box so she can attempt to hit the ball a second time."

granted Esq, and in that case I'd even go so far as to cite intent, and not try to rationalize it by using this (I now know nonexistent) rule.

However, many times the bunted ball does contact the BR instantaneously after shooting off the ground (spin, divot, whatever), she can't avoid it, no obvious intent. Back foot still in the box.

But now, my call will be different.

You mean when the ball hits the BR before s/he has the chance to begin an advance toward 1B and neither foot has left the box? That is the situation that requires 7.4.J to be in the book.

No, I mean when ball is hit, then one foot steps out and contacts (or is contacted by) the batted ball, and back foot is still in BB.

However (please correct me if I'm wrong) if both feet are still in the box, the "foul" call is made only to give the BR the benefit of the doubt (since it is still possible to contact a fair batted ball while completely in the box, which would require an "out" call).

I think the proper call would still be "Dead ball". Then you have a second or two more to process what you've just seen. Follow that by either a foul ball call or the batter is out call.

Let me try to make this as clear as possible (I know I'm the one that muddied the water for many with set-in-stone thoughts).

This isn't dissimilar to dropping the bat, and the bat-hits-ball or ball-hits bat, when you get down to it. That's what I was inferring earlier.

If the batter is still stationary, and the ball hits the batter, it is a foul ball (still a batter, not a batter-runner). Rule 1, Foul Ball (F)

If the batter-runner is out of the batter's box and makes contact with a fair ball, or the fair ball contacts the BR, dead ball out. 8.2-F(4)

If the batter-runner is still in the batter's box (has not yet had a foot touch down completely outside the batter's box), the decision between dead-ball-foul-ball and dead-ball-out rests on which object initiated contact; if BR contacts the ball, dead ball out is the rule. But if ball bounds or spins back and hits moving BR, dead ball foul ball is defensible under strict reading of 8.2-F(4). If not definitive which happened, yes, give the BR the benefit of the doubt.

As to mechanics, I find it preferable (and preached by NCAA) to call dead ball first; it does serve to give you a moment to replay in your head before you come up with the definitive "Out!" or "Foul Ball", and stops those around you from helping you call the game by indicating you are on top of this call. The first instance above (batter still stationary) is the one version where "Foul Ball" alone might be an acceptable alternative, as this foul ball is really no different than one batted off the screen; never fair, never really batted live to be declared dead. That said, I would simplify the mechanic to always calling dead ball first, personally.

And yes, I said it earlier; it is the same rule in baseball. The difference is that the positioning of batters in the box (softball in the front, and generally already in fair territory, versus baseball in the back, and generally starting in foul territory) makes the results somewhat different. So that adds another layer of "benefit of the doubt" in baseball that you cannot usually apply in softball; if the batted ball was over fair ground?