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When is the ball considered to be in the keepers pocession...1 hand, 2 hands?
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The answer is one hand, In my case if the goalie has any part of his/her body touching the ball ie, legs , side, back, as far as I am concern they have possesion. If the players are trying to kick the ball while goalie is trying to control, I blow the whistle and signal the goalie to punt the ball. In the eight years that I Ref Soccer I had no injury goalie.
Also if any player strikes the goalie while running in order to try to reach the ball, I immediatly yellow card, and if in my opinion it is reckless and out of control, then I red card them. This fall in the playing the player rather than the ball Rule.. hope this help Evazz |
The goal keeper bouncing the ball is considered by FIFA to be "in possession". This really applies to the maximum 4 steps (now changed to 6 seconds) while possessing the ball in his hands.
Blowing the whistle (stopping play) and then instructing the goalie to punt the ball has no basis in the rules. If you are stopping the play because an opponent is trying to kick at the ball being held by the keeper, the proper call is "dangerous play" sanctioned by an indirect free kick for the keepers team. A caution could also be issued for unsporting behaviour, possibly a red card for serious foul play if they actually hit him (depends on situation) Immediately yellow-carding a player who strikes the keeper running for the ball is a good idea (depending on age of players and situation) The card would be for unsporting behaviour since nothing else really applies. Note that if both players (attacker and keeper) are within playing distance of the ball, and they make shoulder to shoulder contact with no pushing/elbows etc, there is no foul. Soccer is a contact sport, but there are limitations. By "striking" I'm assuming you mean there is an actual foul involved. In that case the red card could be given for serious foul play, if it was particulary violent or dangerous, and if a direct free kick is not punishment enough. Giving a yellow then a red is not really needed. Just giving my opinion on, and elaborating on, what you were saying. ------------------ ! |
In my humble oppion , if the ball is touching or seems to be touching keeper then he has possesion. As long as you ar consistent with the call on both sides of the field then you wont have a problem. I was taught this philosophy by National Referees from all over. Mostly especially inside the 6 yard line. The keeper should be a protected player, otherwise they will get hurt.
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well if he has the ball in his hands, he can't be touched since there is no way it can be a fair charge (you can't be within playing distance of the ball if its in the keepers hands...)
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The instruction I have always received mirrors much of the discussion here-- the keeper is in "possession" of the ball any time that any part of his body is in contact with the ball; this includes having the ball trapped below a knee, or under an outstretched palm, when "control" is questionable
as a goalie myself in high school, I always felt that having a discrete [yes/no] decision rather than a judgment call was a good idea; consistency counts, and part of consistency is a clear guideline of fair/foul; does the keeper have protection/possession if, in handling the ball while blocking a shot, he or she "juggles" the ball, much like a wide receiver in football?? The interests of protection force us to err on behalf of the keeper, and I wholeheartedly support the notion of "any contact" as the delineator and rapmaster is correct, once you blow the whistle for violating goalie control/possession, the restart is to be an indirect kick; sometimes this restart can be seen as a penalty-- I would much prefer that I be allowed to punt a ball out, but, unfortunately, that's not what the rules say... |
I know this is quite late for a response but I've only just joined and couldn't resist this one.
The correct interpretation is that the keeper is in possession when any part of his/her body is touching the ball. If a player kicks at the keeper, even if not making contact, it is not an indirect for dangerous play, it is a direct free kick. A direct free kick because the act of kicking is one of the ten offenses that require this restart. (Kicks or attempts to kick an opponent). |
High ones
Would add a caviat. Any ball above the keepers head and in his hands high above his head is not reasonably playable by an opponants head, unless the keeper is 5'2". Any contact on a keeper iin this situation is also a foul. Also if you stop play to see if a keeper is injured with the ball in his hands you can just drop the ball back to him and let him punt it out. Not exactly the same thing though.
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I must disagree slightly on your statement. A ball is playable by any player on the field of play. The goalkeeper has no special rights to play the ball because it is in the air above his head. Any attacking player has a right to play that ball in a fair manner. If he makes some contact with the keeper in doing so, it doesn't mean that it is always a foul. Who's to say that the keeper was trying to make the contact? You must use your good judgement in this situation and not prejudge the act in your mind simply because the ball is in the keepers area.
Yes you can drop the ball infront of the keeper if play is stopped for an injury. But you must let the other team participate. Hopefully the opponent will be a good sport and just alllow the keeper to pick up the ball, but you can and will get yourself into trouble if you jsut include the keeper on the drop and not ask for the opponent to join. |
No and No
1)If a goal keeper is 6'00" tall and his arms extend another 2 feet above his head AND he can jump another 2 feet in the air he can take a ball from about 10 feet. No forward can jump that high with his head and touch the ball. If he cant reasonably get the ball he isnt PLAYING The ball and is commiting a foul. This isnt givng the keeper any "special"considerations it is recognizing that a field player has limitations that the keepers dont. They will tryy to limit them by fouling. If you arent looking for this you are missing a big part of the game.
2)You dont have to let ANYBODY participate in drop balls. The technique I discribed is common practice. Basic football officiating. If you HOPE that the attacking team lets the ball go to the keeper you are setting yourself up for failure and digging the proverbial hole. |
I will not argue with you, mainly because you will want the last word. If you read the whole post when they are posted you might understand the post itself.
I never said you needed two opposing players for the drop ball, I said the opponents have a right to participate in that drop ball. You can not exclude them if they want to participate, period. Most players will honor the situation and allow the keeper to pick up the ball. But, if you just drop the ball without inviting an opponent to take part, you my friend, most certainly setting yourself up for problems. You are not a coach nor a teammate of these players and can't act like one. You are there to enforce the Laws and keep the playing field level by making sure that the Laws of the Game are followed. YOU can't bend them to fit your own needs. |
"But, if you just drop the ball without inviting an opponent to take part, you my friend, most certainly setting yourself up for problems"
I agree with those who feel that a drop WITHOUT the opponents is warranted in these sp[ecial situations. If you're stopping the play for injury and a clear team control is present, or you couldn't/didn't wait for the ball to kicked away or out of bounds, then this certinly seems to fit into the SPIRIT of the game. |
Sure in the spirit of the game but the opponent must be allow to participate. There are things you can say to help them choose the sporting thing to do while still staying nuetral, but they must be allowed to take part. If you drop the ball and a player comes running up in a reasonable amount of time and isn't allowed to particiapte you are setting up a definite grounds for protest. Something I say is , "when I was still playing and something like this happened we used to let the keeper pick up the ball, right?" This doesn't tell them what to do directly only suggests the sporting thing to do.
What if it were the attacking team who had the ball and a defender went down on an injury inside the penalty area? Would you just drop the ball without a defender or the keeper? What if they score on the drop ball without the defender taking part? Ok this isn't the same situation but the thinking should be consistent. The Laws doesn't say that both opponents need to participate, but both opponents have a right to take part. You can not make that decision for either team or player. Respect the game and have the players respect the game. Believe in the players more and they will do the right thing. 99% of the time they will do something sporting in this situation. |
Just want to get another word in(hopefully not the last)
1)If I am bending the rules to aid the spirit of the game, YOU are bending the rules by saying both teams must participate. The laws dont say that, you do. 2) If any team protested the decision to drop the ball to the keeper(they havent yet and Ive done it many times) I would first of all expect any league administratio to deny a protest offhand second of all I would defend it effectively much as I have here. ONCE AGAIN this doesnt matter in the big scheme of things. It isnt going to affect the outcome of the game. 3)If you expect the players to do whats right I encourage you to review the tape of the most recent UEFA cup final and the Arsenal game from last year where a goal was scored from a sporting throwin to the keeper. We cant force an outcome but we can do what is available to us within limits. 4. This is such a common practice (dropping the ball to the keeper)I am incredulous that you havent heard of it before. 5. to compare a dropped ball in the penalty area for injury to the defending goalkeeper to injury for an attacker is comparing apples to oranges. We must tailor our decisions to fit the situation. NOBODY calls everything the same way. |
Once again you haven't read the post correctly and base your comments on what you thought you read.
Of course the Laws don't say that both opponents must participate, it doesn't even say any players must participate. Just drop the ball, but you can't leave out the opposing player if he/she wants to participate. By dropping the ball without inviting both players to take part is wrong and against the spirit of the laws. You are changing the outcome by dropping it to the keeper Yes it is common practice but that doesn't make it correct. You can't force a player to be a good sport about this but 99% of the time it will be that way. You show no faith in the game nor it's players and feel that you must control the play because the players won't play the way you want them to. Go ahead and keep doing things the way you are, close your mind to the game and others. It will turn around and bite you in the butt one day. Keep thinking that you are correct all the time. Players, coaches, spectators and officials love that. Good bye here too!!! |
Greyhound, I think you HAVE read the posts correctly and do GET IT as they say. Your points were excellant. Keep up the responses. I guess some people just have to "argue" a certain side of a issue. We should do itin good spirit and to helpful to each other. Maybe whistleblower is doing higher levels of competition that he feels this action maybe frowned upon. I certainly think any lower level ot youth game would prefer safety first! Keep up the good work gang.
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You are most certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect a well thought out one. I must say that the level of game has nothing to do with the proper interpretation of the laws. I am merely pasing along the info that I receive to you as a way of bringing you up to date with what we as referees are being asked to do. Being nasty as Greyhound was, shows the wrong kind of personality any officials organization would not want part of. Ther are many myths to the Laws and how they should be handled. Protecting yourself also should be a concern, as well as, the players. Having faith in the game and it's players shows confidence in one self and that you can handle the situation properly.
This forum should be used in the manner you describe. But not to belittle a poster as did Greyhound. Reading the whole post wquld help also. Maybe asking why someone thinks the way he does couldn't hurt either. |
My angle
Just wanted to clarify where I am coming from on this "experience" issue. I have been fortunate enough to be thrust almost immediately into difficult adult leagues from the begining. Having recently moved from a major metropolitan area to a major NON-metro area(about 10 miles east of east jesus) I have had to return to youth officiating for the first time in four years. I would MUCH prefer a mens open competition to ANY youth contest. I think most of my opinions are slanted with the educated player in mind.
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Ok sounds good to me. Truce? I hope so. I'm sure that I can still learn something from you as well as you from my experience.
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I strongly believe in the referee's mandate to bend the rules to accommodate the spirit of the game. However, as a former coach who's team (during 1998 provincial qualifying finals) had to replay 3 games, one of them almost twice and fight with arbitration boards on four other occasions based on referee's decision to alter the game to fit their brand of justice before we reached the final. It is important to try and not alter the law but apply the statement of "In the opinion of the referee" to the extreme "1)If a goal keeper is 6'00" tall and his arms extend another 2 feet above his head AND he can jump another 2 feet in the air he can take a ball from about 10 feet. No forward can jump that high with his head and touch the ball. If he cant reasonably get the ball he isnt PLAYING The ball and is commiting a foul. This isnt givng the keeper any "special"considerations it is recognizing that a field player has limitations that the keepers dont. They will tryy to limit them by fouling. If you arent looking for this you are missing a big part of the game." The keeper is always at risk in 50 / 50 situations because of their desire and privilege to use their hands and go down in front of feet or leap high into the air where on rushing players are kicking or heading merrily away. Keepers rarely have an opportunity to jump straight up. Usually they are over the backside, at angle or blocked from a clear run to the ball, which is why they are trained to punch if they are not sure they can take a ball down with control. If I could be sure a referee would call every contact as a foul for a high air ball in favour of my keeper I would alter my keeper's tactics to take advantage of this. They are indeed vulnerable when jumping with arms outstretched but it is not an inalienable right for them to have any more protection than any player. Aggressive confident keepers are trained to protect themselves by raising the knee in front as they leap and screaming the word "Keeper!" as they challenge for air balls. A diminutive-attacking player can easily be intimidated or cleaned out by a hard challenging keeper. The fact that a keeper can use his hands are to his advantage. However a keeper has no more right of possession than any player in their struggle for the ball. Our job is to ensure all players safety not only the keepers. My attacking strikers are moving at top speeds trying to gain line of sight and head a ball travelling at times with terrific velocity will not always be able to gauge that a keeper has a better chance than they do or at what point the keeper might get his hands on the ball. They are taught to pursue and chase down everything in the very hope that the keeper might mishandle the ball. In my opinion, not all contact in these situations is necessarily foul. Once a keeper has possession with any part of the body over the ball all attackers should back off or divert their momentum by changing the angle of their runs or jumping over a fallen keeper to avoid contact. In the instance of returning the ball to the keeper after play stoppage when the ball is in his /her possession. " Of course the Laws don't say that both opponents must participate, it doesn't even say any players must participate. Just drop the ball." To walk over to the keeper and turn your hand over to drop the ball if the defending player is not challenging for it provided it is near or at the spot where it was originally, does indeed comply with the law and the spirit of the game. I do not believe I have to blow my whistle or call out "drop ball" so the unsporting attacker can run up and participate. In addition, the game can be under way quickly with a minimum of fuss. "But you can't leave out the opposing player if he/she wants to participate. By dropping the ball without inviting both players to take part is wrong and against the spirit of the laws." I am curious what inviting both players' means. Do you actually call out for a player from each team? Do you go to the spot and wait with ball in palm until both players appear before you? If a player chooses not to respect the spirit of the game and is all ready present in the area when I wish to drop the ball and restart play I will look very closely for something that will allow me to achieve the result I believe the spirit of the game demands. However, I try just as hard not to change the law to suit my own brand of justice. I believe whistleblower's approach is similar to my own (particularly in youth games) in that I will state "Are you aware of the unwritten rule of fairplay and sportsmanship that applies in this situation?" (At the professional level it is so acknowledged to follow this fairplay conduct that in the EPL game that Greyhound mentioned the appeal by the losing team to nullify the goal was turned down by the governing board but on the insistence of the winning team which had been declared the victor the game was forfeited by request and later replayed.) Depending on response, I have asked them directly, " Do you intend to play this ball now knowing that players of good conscience will step away or return the ball. I have not waved them away or told them not to participate and unless the player is so obtuse 90 times out of 100 they back off or return the ball. I acknowledge the sporting play with Tons of encouragement and positive comment. Those of good conscience can not blindly follow rules if they believe them to violate the spirit of the game. It is at this point I take stock of just where and why the drop ball is taking place. If at mid field I drop the ball and off we go. The advantage lost or gained is minimal compared to a drop in the penalty area or on the goal area 6 yard line. I would be sure and have a word with the coach of the team whose players are not respecting the spirit of the game and ask why? For a dropped ball in the penalty area for injury to the defending goalkeeper I would swing my arm from in front of me to a point beside the keeper thus placing myself between the two players, then I would release the ball ensuring the keeper of a returned possession. To argue the semantics whether its legal to do so is applicable only if you're being evaluated for technicality, morally it 100% right. |
Pretty much what I stated. Everyone will have their own approach that can work. Whe I say you must invite both teams to participate, I mean that you must indicate to both teams that you have a drop ball and where. You don't need to wait to long for a player to come over to the spot. As long as you hav e"invited" them by indicating that they will have a drop ball at a particular spot. Although I understand the spirit in which you are thinking, any intereference by the referee in the drop ball is wrong and against the spirit also and not nuetral.
Dropping the ball while blocking out the other player is interefering with play. Let teh players decide, they will 99% of the time do what's right because they know it could one time happen to them. |
A final thought????
On the drop ball thing...Looks like everybody has a view here..
On challenging the keeper. It is unfair for a player to play the body of any player when not within playing distance of the ball. This is usually defined as 2-3 steps at the current speed of play. But it can also be defined unplayable if the ball is way over the players head. What Im getting at here is that if the keeper wont be able to get to a ball without a big high jump...A field player cant reasonably expect to head the ball and the ball is not within playing distance. If the ball is not within playing distance, there is no reason to "tackle"the keeper. Watching games in every signifigant pro league and the MLS this is how it is called. |
This could be the case but each case is conditional to the specific game and referee. The big issue that I have is making this a manditory action by the referee simply because the two players are of different size. Each referee must assess the incident at that moment and judge whether fair or not and also whether making the call at that moment will be an advantage to the attacking team or the defense by making that call. This is not automatic.
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Agreed
If we could have voice communication here it might help. I agree that it shouldnt be automatic. I cant think of many things that require judgement in football that are automatic. I remember about a year ago, a match where Alexi Lalas challenged Jorge Campos for a high one and actually reached the ball with his head before compost could get his hands on it..........Very rare case but it could happen. In that case Lalas did have a reasonable chance of playing the ball and actually scored on the play.
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It took along time but I'm glad we came to a conclusion.
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