Bob,
Just a question...as the VP for AOA Baseball,
are you not concerned that a Board member is so flagrantly breaching our code of ethics?

I know that you are ashamed of some of the language that has passed from these fingetips, but you have to acknowldege that during that last exchange, the name calling and buffonery was all one sided. I tried to state the facts and argue them on merit. You have been around a long time and know the difference between assisting other officials and enabling them. I have refrained from using any names or referencing a specific topic here, because you know what we are talking about. Your thoughts...

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Oct 29th, 2004 at 04:13 PM]

I am a VP in that organization too. Not only am I a VP, but I am a VP in the sport in question.

Bob is no more on the hierarchy than me. And he has little say what our board does in basketball, because he is not on that board. Just like I cannot tell you what you do in your organization.

Your comment just goes to show how much out of the loop you really are. Actually it is kind of sad. You actually think you are respected in these parts.

Peace

... So, the Bears have a little quarterback problem.
mick

I hope you realize that I hate the Bears with a passion. :D


Peace

In the Big House.
 

Yeah, I figgered.
How 'bout:
<Font color = green size = +8>Go Spartans! </Font>
;)
mick

1) I don't know that your assumption is true.

2) I think that there are more efficient / useful ways of discussing the test at association meetings.

3) In other associations, we've not discussed the test -- the members strongly indicated they wanted that topic back.

4) Feel free to contact me off-line to discuss this more.

If I was going to call, it would certainly be about something more important than "He who we don't dare speak his name".

Besides, you read the interaction. You saw where the vitriol was directed and by whom. I have a serious issue with those that enable others to cheat. I don't like players, coaches and officials that cheat or turn their heads when others do. Maybe some organizations condone this, but I know a few of the guys in AOA and know that they don't act this way. Also, I thinks it became painfully obvious who has the emotional control issue here.

I asked why you didn't send a personal email tyo him because I thought you could keep him from heaping more ridicule onto your group. Bob, Dave, Tim and yourself don't help others cheat, why would you stand back and watch him do it?

Because you are a fool and yes I have no problem calling you that. You cannot throw a stone and put your name on it. I can do so and tell you where I am when I was throwing one.

The organization went over the exam in 3 sports with their members. Not sure what you are talking about. But the usual talking out of your a@@ and hoping that someone will believe you. Not one person has ever stood up and said they thought it was cheating or wrong. The tests that we take in this state are all open book tests. So if you have a problem with that, take your issue up with the IHSA. But also understand that everyone I have sent my emails to me is not from Illinois. As a matter of fact they go out of their way to explain what state they are from and why they want the answers or to check their answers.

Dave has us go over the test in baseball. They were doing it before he was president. They have done it since he took over the position as President. Tim was not only in the room when we went over the test this year, but was in the board meeting when we discussed going over the test in Basketball. He also was there when we discussed our Baseball Agenda for this past season (Bob was not btw) and took part in review of the test in our baseball meetings. And not only does this take place in this organization, it takes place in both football organizations I belong to and all the basketball organizations I belong to. And I do not sit in any board position in most of them to set the agenda or to decide what should be discussed or not discussed.

I would also say this, what the hell is Bob going to do to me? With all due respect, Bob might disagree with a position I take, but there is not a hell of a lot he can do about it. That goes both ways. If Bob wants to do something or takes a position, if the people that he serves disagree with his position, they can run and vote him out. Bob is not my boss, nor is he able to tell me what to do. I like Bob a lot, but you must be stupid if you feel any single official has that much power over anything I do or anyone else in our organization does. I am currently the VP of this organization because I was nominated and voted in by the membership.

I think you need to check your facts and know what you are talking about before you come here to tell everyone what I have done and what you think you know of others.

Peace

Men,
Your exchanges are becoming an unwanted distraction.
They are not in the best interests of this forum.

I understand the need to defend yourselves, but this is not a good, or <U>accepted</U> place to accomplish that end.

Please stop and enjoy the forum in other ways.
mick

Sorry, I cannot do that.
 

Mick,

Then why do you allow this clown to keep posting? With all due respect, this individual is not an official in the sport of the forums he participates a great deal of the time. He starts talking about people, issues and things he knows nothing about. He constantly gets personal and makes every post with a brick in his hand. I do not make posts to disprove this clown when it has nothing to do with my sport or issue. If he does not like what I have done, he has the opportunity to take it up with the governing body that we deal with. I have yet to hear anything from the IHSA or anyone associated with the IHSA. As a matter of fact, I was called to work a football playoff by the very person he claimed he was going to report me to. I have no problem taking responsibility for my actions, but I did not create a post to go after someone's organization and to try to use the relationship with another individual that happens to be a member. I will always defend that no matter where that is. If you do not want me to respond, delete posts like this. I would feel the same way if I came here to only rip people in someone's organization and started name dropping to try to make a point or threaten that individual. You guys have let this action continue over the months and I am not going to set back and say nothing. You hit me with your fist. I will come back with gun. I do not play that mess. But I do not come here to cheap shot people or try to threaten people with names to try to make them fall in line with my philosophy.

I stand by my actions and words. If this clown does not like it, he can contact me thru email or he can face me in person. I am not a scared little boy worried about some man behind the curtain. So if you do not like my actions mick, get rid of posts like this. You have the power to do so. I am not taking a hit sitting on my hands.

Peace

They almost did. Helluva game- I watched the 2nd half and the OT's. College football at it's best!

YU.P. Real fine football!
Michigan true freshman TB [Hart] 3rd 200+ rushing game in a row.
WR Braylon Edwards ... amazingly strong hands.
The Big House doesn't have a bad seat.
[<I>Local undefeated DII Michigan Tech will play there next weekend.</I>]
mick

Mick, I respectfully disagreee.

Effective communication of your opinion is an important tool in officiating. We are sometimes involved in heated arguments and require the ability to maintain control while handling sticky situations. I've been involved in many discussions that have led to name calling and finger pointing. I'm still able to sleep at night and know that the barbs they toss mean very little in the scheme of things.

I hope you've been around long enough to have seen some of the better officials handle these fracases. Some are able to do it with a look, others with a few zingers of their own. Some of us can accomplish the job without acting like toddlers. A wise old umpire once told me, “You may never covince them that your right, but never let them prove you wrong.” That is all that is transpiring here. The members can see who is winning the battle. I have not one all of them, but, I’ve learned from all of them. I’m fairly certain that some of our members are learning what not to say to someonone who can argue well.

Lastly, you and Bob can edit or delete any post that crosses the line. You have exercised this ability to some success. I encourage you to act like a judge - sit back , listen (smile occassionally when a well chosen turn of words comes your way) and control the situation. The jury recognizes the merit of the arguments. Our members are particularly vocal when one of us missteps. That is the beauty of officiating. We have to be on our toes all of the time. The ones that survive and thrive have learned that not all battles are worth blood.

BTW - I won $100 on the Maize and Blue, so I'm starting the week in a good mood.

Re: In the Big House.
 

All I know is that we won again.

<Font color = Blue size = +8>Go Blue! </Font>

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_1.gif' alt='Smile' border=0></a>

Peace

Go Blue...as in WindyCityBlue?

Thank you, Jeff!

Re: Re: In the Big House.
 

I do not know how to show it in big red letters, but:'


GGG OOO BBB UUU CCC KKK EEE YYY EEE SSS !!!

O...HI....O!!!
 

Mark,

You know that this is the only way Buckey fans learn to spell.

:D

Peace

You wish.
 

More like <Font color = Red size = +8>Go AWAY Blue! </Font>

Peace

Disagreement is good.
 

Effective communication of your opinion is an important tool in officiating.
I think the delivery is quite important.

I encourage you to act like a judge - sit back , listen (smile occassionally when a well chosen turn of words comes your way) and control the situation. The jury recognizes the merit of the arguments.
I have been contacted too many times by the jury.


BTW - I won $100 on the Maize and Blue, so I'm starting the week in a good mood.
Is it okay for you to wager on other sports? :)
mick

Re: Disagreement is good.
 

1) Absolutely...much like a good comic or satirist, you have to HEAR the message. Too many people get hung up on the looks, voice or mannerisms and miss the thought. I don't have blinders on and don't have an agenda. But, I pick and choose my arguments carefully. Others see a name and grab the torches. Those are the ones that scare me. Blind rage obscures logic.

2) If you want to be the judge, you have to be prepared to hear complaints from the jury. It comes with the territory.

3) I was under the impression that gambling was legal in this country. I was at the ESPNZone in Las Vegas over the weekend. They've got this thing called a sports book and it was amazing. I gave some guy $50 and watched the game. A couple hours later he handed me $100! It was so cool; if you have the means, I highly recommend it. :)

I get it.
 

Some actions that are not okay in some places are, in fact, okay in other places.
Thanks. ;)
mick

Like starting a war in another country?

I noticed that too.
 

I guess a D1 Umpire (???) can wager on another D1 game. I guess they do not show Baseball Umpires the same tape they show Basketball Officials at the NCAA Rules Meetings.

Peace

Grasshopper, you have much to learn.

No, I did not that video. Most likely because I have not felt compelled to shell out monet to Fetch and waste a winter weekend all in hopes of a couple of crumbs. We have never been instructed to abstain from legally wagering on a any sport that we do not officiate.

I don't recall wagering on the CWS. Since none of the teams I saw made it that far and I can't affect the outcome, but I would have a problem with that, as well.

Didn't the NCAA just clear Rick Neuheisel (sp) for participating in a legal activity (March Madness pool)? Hmmm, he was fired for lying to the AD, but the NCAA cleared him because his compliance officer had told him that there was no conflict. I can't imagine that he is the only one that has ever done that.


[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Nov 1st, 2004 at 02:29 PM]

Keep trying to justify it. ;)

There are rules against betting on sports. You are an official at that level or at least you claim to be. You should not be betting on sports at that level. The NCAA cannot do much to a fired coach that is no longer with an NCAA school. They can penalize the school and that could be coming. I have not heard of the NCAA not holding anyone responsible for betting. Ask Mississippi State, they could easily come back some years and put Washington on some kind of probation.

Peace

Okay, you know more.

I believe your words were "You don't even work this sport, how can you tell us what to do."

Well, Jeff, I've been working Division 1 baseball for over a dozen years. I've never encountered one person that has told me that it is illegal for a baseball officials to place a legal wager on a football game. But then again, much of your advice is full of holes. I learned on the field, not at a clinic.

It is not me you have to worry about. Just another reason you hide behind a name that disguises your identity.

Peace

Windy;

You are right and Rut is wrong with regards to baseball. On behalf of an NCAA supervisor, I did some research a few years ago on this subject. (The reason for the investigation was that we had D1 umpire with a betting problem.) We found that there is no organized betting on college baseball with the possible exception of the CWS. Thus, baseball umpires cannot be caught up in a betting scandel ala NCAA football or basketball. Hence, NCAA felt no need to caution or discipline baseball umpires about betting whereas they make a big deal about it with football or basketball officials.

Rut is correct for basketball and football. Heavy losses on football by a basketball official might allow professional gamblers to compromise the basketball official even though his betting had nothing to do with basketball.

Peter

Interesting, Peter.
Thanks.
mick

Sometimes, I just love that guy - Triple H, that is. I could say I told you so, but it's pretty obvious.


I've been trying to tell Rut, for some time, that he is trying to baffle or B.S. someone who actually works this level. Maybe now, some of you will relax a little and realize that I either offer advice or correct the bad stuff here. That advice comes from experience and insight - not supposition and conjecture. This was just another example of charging in blindly and fighting a battle that can't be won. It's become a sad war.

No, actually what your post prove that no one seems to care but you. If the NCAA could give a damn if a Baseball Umpire gambles on another other sport that just goes to show what the public thinks about that level. You keep trying to convince everyone here how important you are and why people should agree with you on everything you say. Peter just illustrated my point. It is just baseball, it is not rocket science. I am glad you feel positive about your experiences and what they mean, but the rest of us could give a damn. I love baseball too, but I have enough sense to realize that most of the public could give a damn. Very seldom to umpires come here and talk extensively about college baseball or the umpires that work it. So no one really gives a damn if you work 10 D1 conferences here. Because I do not that most do not care. Many umpires here are much more concerned with the LL games they work than what you have done in your or my career. You obviously are not a respected or revered umpire in our parts, because you have given your resume 20,000 times and your identity is still a mystery to many. Just goes to show that the only people that seem to care about your accomplishments are those folks in your association.

How is the DVC coming? :D

Peace

No, actually what your post prove that no one seems to care but you.

Yes, that is what it "prove".
••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••• •

If the NCAA could give a damn if a Baseball Umpire gambles on another other sport that just goes to show what the public thinks about that level.

No, the NCAA has recognized that it is not a problem. Maybe, because we can control ourselves and only involve ourselves with what we know.
••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••

You keep trying to convince everyone here how important you are and why people should agree with you on everything you say. Peter just illustrated my point.

Yes, he did. He showed everyone that you are and were wrong. You had no idea what you were talking about, now the world has more proof. Thank you, Peter.
••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••
It is just baseball, it is not rocket science. I am glad you feel positive about your experiences and what they mean, but the rest of us could give a damn. I love baseball too, but I have enough sense to realize that most of the public could give a damn. Very seldom to umpires come here and talk extensively about college baseball or the umpires that work it. So no one really gives a damn if you work 10 D1 conferences here. Because I do not that most do not care.

Translation in English, please?
••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••

Many umpires here are much more concerned with the LL games they work than what you have done in your or my career. You obviously are not a respected or revered umpire in our parts, because you have given your resume 20,000 times and your identity is still a mystery to many. Just goes to show that the only people that seem to care about your accomplishments are those folks in your association.

Do you know who I am? Maybe you should ask Bob Jenkins. I think your tune will change very quickly.
••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••

How is the DVC coming?

Fine, I understand that Jeff is busy scrambling for bodies even as we speak. It should be just a few months before the first phone calls start pouring in, begging us to take them back. It happened before, because some ADs thought they would be better off with another group. They were wrong then and will be back. Funny...but I could ask how Elgin and Wheaton Colege are? Did they come begging us to take them back? Yep...and at a rate increase!

[Edited by WindyCityBlue on Nov 2nd, 2004 at 12:11 PM]

How is the DVC coming?

Fine, I understand that Jeff is busy scrambling for bodies even as we speak. It should be just a few months before the first phone calls start pouing in, begging us to take them back. It happened before, because they thought they would be better off with another group. Funny...but I could ask how Elgin and Wheaton Colege are? Did they come begging us to take them back? Yep...and at a rate increase! [/B][/QUOTE]

I do basketball as well as baseball and I work for 5 different assignors (they all belong to different associations) and all of them know it and none of them will blackball me for doing this. In baseball this is not the case. I go to socials where we have our favorite beverage and pizzas and all of the assignors get along together. In fact if they need a game covered they help each other out. Do you know in basketball that there are numerous officials that belong to two or more associations? In baseball it's like warring camps. I doubt that the assignors could ever get together on a social occaision which I believe is a sad situation. I doubt that they would ever help each other out if they needed a game covered. In my opinion this is a disservice to the schools that need an umpire. And because of this you lost the DVC not because of the quality of your officials (Umps has many excellent offcials) but simply because you couldn't cover all of the scheduled games. If we all worked together this wouldn't have occurred. There are plenty of games to go around for anyone who wants to work.

I know you "Palm Pilot" excuse behind is not talking about me. You do that type of stuff on every single post and blame it on a piece of technology. I can admit that I messed up. That is the best you can do?

If the NCAA could give a damn if a Baseball Umpire gambles on another other sport that just goes to show what the public thinks about that level.

No, the NCAA realizes that no one cares about college baseball. It has gets major coverage when the College World Series comes up. CBS dropped the College World Series when the ratings dropped on their network and they discovered that could do better with golf on that same day. I love college baseball a lot, but the public could give a damn. Which I find funny you keep trying to show your importance in this issue.

Actually, he called both of us wrong. You attend NCAA Meetings for baseball, I have never attended on. I have attended a Football Meeting and a Basketball Meeting and they show tapes on Gambling. It is in the agenda. But people bet on those sports when it is two teams you did not know had a basketball program.



Maybe I should blame it on a Palm Pilot? :D

I see you keep dropping names to think that is suppose to have some profound affect on me. Bob is a good guy and he is a very good official, but the last time I checked Bob is just another official I know. I sat at a table with all these individuals you like to throw out there and your name or this site did not come up once. Nothing about your organization or (3 of the people were members BTW) or the issues you keep talking about. I can see it is all about you.

I made the statement not to talk about who got it, but to point out that you claimed your group was so much better than anyone else, you lost probably the best baseball conference (your words) in the state to another organization. I work where ever and when ever. I do not put my schedule in the hands of one organization or one assignor. So you can talk about two colleges that I do not work, nor care to work. As I have stated to you before, I might not work much baseball this year or afterwards because I have other committments that might get in the way. But I did not come on this site to put down everyone else and their organization the way you did. But now that great organization lost a major baseball conference for the second time that I have been living in this area. You can bring up Jeff and his struggles all you want, but your organization lost this conference again. I have worked in the DVC in Football and I will take that any day over a baseball game in that conference. But then again, this is a life changing event in your life, I could give a damn. I just do not understand why you are so concerned with two D3 schools when you are suppose to be the man at the D1 level? Maybe that just shows how much you are not the man. ;)

Peace

I work for more than 5, but I do games well outside of the Chicago area. But what you are saying is very true.


What Gordon says is exactly the truth and been my problem with Baseball in this area. Guys are much more concerned about organizations, instead of hiring the best umpires available. That is why one conference or one school keeps changing assignors every other year. If the assignors would stop trying to hold allegiances to a group of people that happen to pay dues to one organization. In football there is an assignors meeting where all the Chicago area assignors come and choose crews in a "draft" like selection process and pick their crews based on other assignments or availability of the crew. They work together and pump up the good crews and hire who is available with every assignor knowing who works for whom. I have even heard they will trade games to help another assignor out with an opening. No organization affiliations or picking only people from on area. They hire you based on what you have proven in the past and where you are willing to go. You might one year have 3 games from one conference and the next year get none depending on several factors. But you do not get hired based on the only one organization you belong.

There are not enough umpires in baseball (in our state and area) to be picky about who works and who does not work with a group. It is sad that baseball in our area is reduced to fighting between organizations, rather than who can work and who cannot work. One of the many reasons I am not looking for a future in baseball as the basis of my officiating career.

Peace

Has everyone else stopped laughing at his post, yet?


Typos are VERY different from poor English. I can cite several in your last that made me wet my pants. Please stop...I can't take it anymore.

Oh, BTW, how did Peter say I was wrong. I read his statement several times and can't figure out how you can surmise that. I only talked about baseball, you referred to other sports. I only talked about what occurs at the D-1 baseball level; you pretended to know and showed all of us that you didn't have a clue!

I'm still waiting for anyone to show me how I was wrong. You are standing all alone, here. That must be a terrible feeling.

From gordon30307 -

And because of this you lost the DVC not because of the quality of your officials (Umps has many excellent offcials) but simply because you couldn't cover all of the scheduled games. If we all worked together this wouldn't have occurred. There are plenty of games to go around for anyone who wants to work.

••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••

From WCB-
I despise lies and loose ends, so here goes. I will explain what happened, without using names and ridiculing those involved.

The DVC asked for UMPS to make a presentation to the ADs for the next contract period. A couple of reps went on our behalf and were met with some concerns, but nothing unusual. One of the new DVC ADs is fresh from one of our rival groups's schools. He had a good relationship with that assignor and informed him of our proposal. That assignor then made his presentation, armed with the ammo he needed. I respect that he was able to get the job done, but don’t pretend that he did not sabotage our proposal. Now, we will watch them flounder about, scrapping to fill those games. When the DVC crosses over and plays a team from the WSC or another conference. They will be met by three of our studs (not two available bodies), to see what they are missing. This is what happens when one group thinks that they can act with impunity. A few years ago, the same thing happened to Elgin and Wheaton (hey, we know someone who lives there.) Colleges. They left our group for greener pastures and called us to come back - no solicitation needed.

What this says about baseball organizations in the Chicago area is that the competition for the almighty dollar is fierce...nothing more. Yes, we have many umpires that are looking for good games. I hate to break this to you, but not all of them are worthy of the challenge. There are good reasons that those DVC games went uncovered. First and foremost is there are so many games out there, guys can decide that they don’t want to work underlevel games. Communication was a problem - with rain outs and rescheduling, the pool of available guys changes daily. With regards to that, we dropped the ball and knew it. It was embarrassing and unfortunate for those guys that busted their a**es all year. Lastly, loyalty to a group is not what it used to be. We schedule our members at the beginning of the year and rely on them to call when they have an open date or a rain out kills us. Sometimes they get a phone call from another assignor who has a “better” game and they call back to say, “I’ve got a doctor’s appointment/my car broke down/my wife has to work late/etc.” It’s a joke.

Our group has been asked to take on some prime schools and we’ve declined out of concern that our core schools would then receive an inferior product. That is going to happen with the DVC and the core schools of that organization, as well. If you only have so many good umpires and you add clients, someone is not going to get the guys they think they should. So it then falls to independents to scramble and fill in. You may feel that you are just as capable and welcome the opportunity, but the proof is in the pudding. Baseball is an entirely different animal and the ADs demand accountability. Basketball games don’t get rained out. I can’t recall the last football game that got cancelled because of the weather. Yet, in baseball, you have a whole lot of games that are at the mercy of Mother Nature. Further, because most conferences alternate days of the week for games and you see what happens when Monday’s game is rained out and they want to make it up on Tuesday. Uh, oh, those umpires are assigned to another game already!

I’m praying for a whole lot of rain in March and April. By the end of May, they’ll be calling us again. But this time, the price goes up!

That is the biggest bunch of crap I think I have read in a long time.

Mother Nature? It was Mother Nature?

OK, and the tooth fairy is responsible for your supposed success.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
[B]From gordon30307 -

Baseball is an entirely different animal and the ADs demand accountability. Basketball games don’t get rained out. I can’t recall the last football game that got cancelled because of the weather. Yet, in baseball, you have a whole lot of games that are at the mercy of Mother Nature. Further, because most conferences alternate days of the week for games and you see what happens when Monday’s game is rained out and they want to make it up on Tuesday. Uh, oh, those umpires are assigned to another game already!

I agree 100% in what you say. All the more reason for the assignors to work together rather than against each other. From my perspective all I'm interested in is working games I'm not interested in the politics. Like most umpires my schedule is pretty much done by January. Concerning rainouts my game in the South may be cancelled, and my assignor might have nowhere to send me. Wouldn't it be nice if my assignor referred me to another assignor who needed a game filled? I'm happy because I'm working. The other assignor is happy because he got a game filled. I know this is wishful thinking and with baseball I know it probably won't happen.

Please show me where I said that the DVC was the best baseball conference in the state. I never did, but I have said that we have the best conferences (plural) in the state. We still do.

I'm not sure why you keep putting down NCAA D-1 baseball. I've never said it was teh be all end all of civilization, but it is the brass ring you'll not grasp.

Finally, the lies need to stop. You keep saying that I'm hiding, but I've provided you with someone who can fill that void in your life. Now, you've put him down. Bob Jenkins can umpire circles around you. I never told this Board that I saw you workl last year. I kept it quiet since the battles had died down for a while. But, I saw you work a game between Carmel and Warren last year. Your plate work was ridiculous and Gandlofi let you here about it on numerous occasions. You don't understand what a swing is, since you called them on people who positioned the bat for a bunt, but pulled it back prior to offering at the pitch. Both coaches and your partner were laughing at you. You may want to actually come out from behind the plate on infield balls in play with no one on. Standing there just looks pathetic. Finally, because you keep telling us that baseball isn't your best sport, you may want to keep track of balls and strikes better. You got caught twice!

You made this personal and used the names of groups. Once again, you've shown your true colors. I just report the facts...interpret them as you like.