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MD Longhorn Mon Jan 05, 2015 02:25pm

Interference - Cowboys Lions
 
I surely expected to see some banter over here over that call/pickup. I think we all agree the administration of that was funky (flag, announce, pick up flag without announcement), and that the lack of familiarity with each other might have been a culprit.

What I'd like to discuss, though, is... was it interference?

I am clearly biased (Go Cowboys), and while I can support the non-call logically, I also recognize I can support the other side logically. So ... was it interference? (Cowboy and Lion fans must announce their affiliation)

Welpe Mon Jan 05, 2015 02:41pm

Seems to fit pretty neatly into the category of "Early Contact, not playing the ball" to me.

hbk314 Mon Jan 05, 2015 02:59pm

I'm not a fan of either team, nor am I an official. To me the contact is very minor, but at the same time, I've seen what I would consider to be equal contact or even less contact called. I've also seen more not get called. In my opinion, the decision to pick up the flag was the right one, although the communication wasn't the best with the way it was done.

Raymond Mon Jan 05, 2015 03:18pm

Mea culpa from the NFL...but not for the interference itself. For poor communication, the missed defensive holding call on the same play by Hitchens, and mention of not penalizing Dez when he ran on the field.

Dean Blandino acknowledges Cowboys got away with one | ProFootballTalk

hbk314 Mon Jan 05, 2015 06:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef (Post 948754)
Mea culpa from the NFL...but not for the interference itself. For poor communication, the missed defensive holding call on the same play by Hitchens, and mention of not penalizing Dez when he ran on the field.

Dean Blandino acknowledges Cowboys got away with one | ProFootballTalk

Seems to line up pretty much with how people feel here, although I don't think anyone's mentioned holding one way or the other(not really the primary focus of the play).

bigjohn Mon Jan 05, 2015 08:57pm

It was never HOLDING, what is this Jack Wagon looking at????

Matt Mon Jan 05, 2015 09:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 948821)
It was never HOLDING, what is this Jack Wagon looking at????

The holding that occurred.

bigjohn Mon Jan 05, 2015 09:51pm

holding? his jersey, Bullbutter!

Inside Slant: Referee Pete Morelli had four potential penalties on key play - NFL Nation Blog - ESPN

hbk314 Tue Jan 06, 2015 01:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 948837)

What?

AremRed Tue Jan 06, 2015 02:11am

Situationally (3rd down in the 4th quarter of a playoff game), despite the new rules on illegal contact, I thought the holding was marginal and the DPI was marginal. Together I thought they amounted to a foul, but you can't really add up .5 foul + .5 foul to = 1 foul. I agree the administration was poor, not sure how communication got screwed up there.

Dez protesting the call was marginal, I see that reaction go unpenalized all the time. He's allowed to disagree, right? I didn't see anything specifically unsporting about his actions. Every fan forum is whining about him not having his helmet on -- but he wasn't even on the field at the time. As far as I know there are no rules governing whether a player is required to wear his helmet when not actively participating in the play. Being on the field was marginal too, and unless he ran up to an official protesting the call or waved them off or something I doubt the officials would call that in a playoff game.

Rich Tue Jan 06, 2015 09:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 948894)
Situationally (3rd down in the 4th quarter of a playoff game), despite the new rules on illegal contact, I thought the holding was marginal and the DPI was marginal. Together I thought they amounted to a foul, but you can't really add up .5 foul + .5 foul to = 1 foul. I agree the administration was poor, not sure how communication got screwed up there.

Dez protesting the call was marginal, I see that reaction go unpenalized all the time. He's allowed to disagree, right? I didn't see anything specifically unsporting about his actions. Every fan forum is whining about him not having his helmet on -- but he wasn't even on the field at the time. As far as I know there are no rules governing whether a player is required to wear his helmet when not actively participating in the play. Being on the field was marginal too, and unless he ran up to an official protesting the call or waved them off or something I doubt the officials would call that in a playoff game.

He was on the field arguing. Or did you miss that part?

MD Longhorn Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 948922)
He was on the field arguing. Or did you miss that part?

He was not on the field for the previous play.

Rich Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 948929)
He was not on the field for the previous play.

Even more reason to throw a flag, then.

AremRed Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 948922)
He was on the field arguing. Or did you miss that part?

Nope, I mentioned in my post that Dez was on the field but thought it was marginal. Do you know how far was he on the field?

Rich Tue Jan 06, 2015 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 948935)
Nope, I mentioned in my post that Dez was on the field but thought it was marginal. Do you know how far was he on the field?

Was he standing on the green? Too far, then.

ajmc Tue Jan 06, 2015 01:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 948935)
Nope, I mentioned in my post that Dez was on the field but thought it was marginal. Do you know how far was he on the field?

Actually, how far he was on the field is immaterial. What MATTERS is whether the official, who the comments were directed at, judged the behavior as worthy of an UNC penalty, or better served the game by taking an alternate response, and how the player responded to the response chosen.

Apparently the player responded PROPERLY to whatever instructions he received - and the game continued without further action, or consequence, being necessary.

Those are decisions made by field officials at every level (PopWarner through NFL) regarding spontaneous, usually overly emotional reactions to game conditions or situations, by non-players, and are far more often handled by some level of corrective instruction, rather than penalty.

MD Longhorn Tue Jan 06, 2015 02:18pm

The threshold for getting a USC foul is far different in the NFL than elsewhere. I've seen them pass on seemingly FAR worse than this many many times. If the player obeys the stop sign, they generally don't draw a flag.

bisonlj Tue Jan 06, 2015 04:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 948952)
Actually, how far he was on the field is immaterial. What MATTERS is whether the official, who the comments were directed at, judged the behavior as worthy of an UNC penalty, or better served the game by taking an alternate response, and how the player responded to the response chosen.

Apparently the player responded PROPERLY to whatever instructions he received - and the game continued without further action, or consequence, being necessary.

Those are decisions made by field officials at every level (PopWarner through NFL) regarding spontaneous, usually overly emotional reactions to game conditions or situations, by non-players, and are far more often handled by some level of corrective instruction, rather than penalty.

This is exactly how I heard it described. Since he wasn't in on the previous play, he wasn't a player who removed his helmet while still on the field. He was asked to leave and he immediately complied.

AremRed Wed Jan 07, 2015 01:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 948952)
Actually, how far he was on the field is immaterial. What MATTERS is whether the official, who the comments were directed at, judged the behavior as worthy of an UNC penalty, or better served the game by taking an alternate response, and how the player responded to the response chosen.

Apparently the player responded PROPERLY to whatever instructions he received - and the game continued without further action, or consequence, being necessary.

Those are decisions made by field officials at every level (PopWarner through NFL) regarding spontaneous, usually overly emotional reactions to game conditions or situations, by non-players, and are far more often handled by some level of corrective instruction, rather than penalty.

Great post, thanks.

Texas Aggie Thu Jan 08, 2015 06:32pm

Cowboy fan here -- surprised the flag was picked up, and don't necessarily agree with it. But then, I don't know the exact wording of the NFL DPI rules nor do I know what their philosophies are.

On the Dez thing, that would get an immediate flag in college, but again, NFL has a different set of guidelines. One thing to keep in mind about the NFL is that they will fine a player regardless of whether he's flagged. College and high school officials don't have that backing them up so it isn't like totally bad behavior is going to be ignored in the NFL.

hbk314 Wed Jan 14, 2015 01:15am

On a slightly related note, do you think there's going to be a point where pass interference penalties, being a spot foul, will be reviewable?

Perhaps where penalties called on the field can be look at and overturned, but you can't go to replay to call pass interference. If it were ever to come to that, I'd hope the decision would involve the calling official or officials responsible for covering that area. They know why they flagged it, they should be the ones to go to replay to confirm what they based the flag on happened or not.

Thoughts?

ajmc Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbk314 (Post 950197)
On a slightly related note, do you think there's going to be a point where pass interference penalties, being a spot foul, will be reviewable?

Perhaps where penalties called on the field can be look at and overturned, but you can't go to replay to call pass interference. If it were ever to come to that, I'd hope the decision would involve the calling official or officials responsible for covering that area. They know why they flagged it, they should be the ones to go to replay to confirm what they based the flag on happened or not. Thoughts?

Considering the unbelievable success of football, at all levels, especially the NFL, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" sounds like good advice even to those nit pickers who strive for some imaginary perfection.

Football is a game planned by humans, played by humans and currently officiated by humans all of which are subject to error and mistakes, which as long as they are honest and unbiased, are part of the challenge that makes the game so popular.

Humans aren't perfect meaning all levels of Judges aren't perfect, why would anyone realisticly expect sports officiating to be perfect. The clamor about "mistakes" comes largely from fans (short for fanatics) who usually have little actual knowledge about what they are complaining about, Coaches, who by definition and purpose are clearly biased and Sportscasters and other Pundits whose job it is to babble.

Having the ability to turn EVERYTHING into video games doesn't mean it will be a good idea. Enjoy the game, as it is, with all it's challenges, twists, turns and occassional questions, that people choose to NEVER agree about. We all need to be really careful about messing with any Goose that lays golden eggs, year after year after year.

hbk314 Wed Jan 14, 2015 05:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 950239)
Considering the unbelievable success of football, at all levels, especially the NFL, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" sounds like good advice even to those nit pickers who strive for some imaginary perfection.

Football is a game planned by humans, played by humans and currently officiated by humans all of which are subject to error and mistakes, which as long as they are honest and unbiased, are part of the challenge that makes the game so popular.

Humans aren't perfect meaning all levels of Judges aren't perfect, why would anyone realisticly expect sports officiating to be perfect. The clamor about "mistakes" comes largely from fans (short for fanatics) who usually have little actual knowledge about what they are complaining about, Coaches, who by definition and purpose are clearly biased and Sportscasters and other Pundits whose job it is to babble.

Having the ability to turn EVERYTHING into video games doesn't mean it will be a good idea. Enjoy the game, as it is, with all it's challenges, twists, turns and occassional questions, that people choose to NEVER agree about. We all need to be really careful about messing with any Goose that lays golden eggs, year after year after year.

But what's your opinion on my proposed implementation if it got to that point? I wouldn't want it to change how plays are officiated, leading to flags being thrown because they can "fix" it on replay.

I brought it up because it's been talked about over the last few years. The only other thing I could see adding to review would be the illegal hits on defenseless receivers.

ajmc Wed Jan 14, 2015 06:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbk314 (Post 950364)
But what's your opinion on my proposed implementation if it got to that point? I wouldn't want it to change how plays are officiated, leading to flags being thrown because they can "fix" it on replay.

I brought it up because it's been talked about over the last few years. The only other thing I could see adding to review would be the illegal hits on defenseless receivers.

Personally, I don't think it will add any benefit to the game. The field official views the action between the players and determines, based on his knowledge of the rule and its intent and experience developed over his career when, and if, contact between players provides either with a disadvantage or unfair advantage that may, or may not, be a result of the contact, which it seems more often than not, there is some degree of.

Perhaps some day the result will be achieved by a show of hands from spectators viewing precise slow motion videos, but I hope we never get that far as it will not help the game.

hbk314 Wed Jan 14, 2015 06:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 950373)
Personally, I don't think it will add any benefit to the game. The field official views the action between the players and determines, based on his knowledge of the rule and its intent and experience developed over his career when, and if, contact between players provides either with a disadvantage or unfair advantage that may, or may not, be a result of the contact, which it seems more often than not, there is some degree of.

Perhaps some day the result will be achieved by a show of hands from spectators viewing precise slow motion videos, but I hope we never get that far as it will not help the game.

That's why I would have the calling official(s) be involved in the process. They know why they threw the flag, and replay will either confirm that reason for them or not.

bisonlj Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbk314 (Post 950374)
That's why I would have the calling official(s) be involved in the process. They know why they threw the flag, and replay will either confirm that reason for them or not.

I don't like it, but I assume we'll eventually have it. Then we'll review all personal fouls because they are 15-yard penalties. Then they'll want to look at all holding fouls. Then eventually anything and everything will be reviewable. Anything that could have been a downgrade by a grader could be reviewed and corrected in real time. Why wait until after the game? And I don't like it.

ajmc Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by hbk314 (Post 950374)
That's why I would have the calling official(s) be involved in the process. They know why they threw the flag, and replay will either confirm that reason for them or not.

Every job entails some level of review and accountability, but if that effort becomes nitpicking and debating everything someone does, the result is intimidating to the employee and eventually negatively affects their performance.

There will never be pure perfection, no matter how much the results are examined, not is pure perfection a reasonable, or even necessary, requirement. Weighing the alleged benefit versus the potential damage suggests, "When it ain't broke, don't fix it".


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