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Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 943903)

Well you cannot be a player unless you are one of the 22 in the game. Non-players are anyone including coach, substitute, attendant or replaced player. And the PF Rule 10-4 applies to players and non-players.

But the spot for a personal foul by a player is different from that for either an unsportsmanlike or nonplayer foul (i.e. a foul by a nonplayer).

What I want to know is, is it possible to commit a personal foul against someone who is in some sense an opponent, but is a nonplayer? If so, how do you know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 943904)

I would say Yes, it is possible to commit a PF against a nonplayer.

Rule 9-4-3g ... No player or nonplayer shall make any other contact with an opponent which is deemed unnecessary and which incites roughness. The term "opponent" is identified in Rule 2-43. It says nothing about the opponent has to be one of the 11 players only that the opponent is "the defense, B or R".

In the OP, Originally Posted by OKREF
Ok. Let me clarify. B23 intercepts a pass. At the 35 yd line B10 blocks A2 and they end up OOB and in the team B bench area. 10-15 team B players surround A2. Whooping it up. A2 is trying to get away, as he is, non-player A1 (think he means B1) jumps and gets in the face of B2 (think he means A2) and bumps him, A2 then shoves B1. All of this happens during the interception return for a touchdown, prior to the score. They are both live ball fouls.

So do we have two personal fouls? Or 1 PF, and 1 US?

2 PF's ... contact by each guilty party.
Nonplayer B1 bumps Player A2 - PF 9-4-3g, 10-4-5c & 8-2-4
A2 then shoves B1 durring B23's TD run - PF 9-4-3g, 8-2-2

Quote:

Originally Posted by ump33 (Post 943916)

The term "opponent" is identified in Rule 2-43. It says nothing about the opponent has to be one of the 11 players only that the opponent is "the defense, B or R".

I looked there too, but it uses the word "opponent" only in terms of "the team". It doesn't say anything about which individuals compose a team. I could take it just as easily as limited to players as I could to include non-players. I've a feeling they meant it one way or the other, but not sure which.

After writing the above, I found something else that clarifies it in this case but leaves some similar scenarios vague: the definition of "substitute" in Fed 2-32-15, identifying him as a "team member". So it would make the action in the original case posed a personal foul (UR by a player vs. an opponent who is a substitute), but leave it unclear in the case of other non-players.