Foul Behind the Basic Spot
 

I have a question that may have been answer before, but I just need clarification. It is in reference to spot fouls.

I was calling a high school game. it was 3 and 10. QB receives the snap, drops back and due to pressure, scrambles about 15 yards behind the basic spot (LOS) where he was tackle by the face mask (5 yards). the penalty was accessed from the spot. so then it became 3 and 20. is this the correct enforcement?

Using the 2014 rule by Topic book, it states on page 240, that a "snap" is consider a loose ball play. it states from the time of the snap until the play is dead in or behind the basic spot, it will be consider a loose ball play. Case play 10.4.2 Situation B also reinforce that statement.
The only exception is the All but one where the offense commits a foul behind the basic spot which then will be a spot foul.

AM I WAY OFF BASE HERE??? I went to the state and there response is listed below. I welcome all comments to help me clarified this……



“A pitch is a loose ball. From the snap until the pitched ball is possessed is all part of a loose ball play. Once the ball is possessed after the pitch, everything else becomes a running play.

On a handoff, its always a running play.

Only on a loose ball play is that penalty previous spot. Any foul on a running play has the basic spot as the spot of the foul.

So in your play with a handoff, that face mask is enforced from the spot. There is no advantage gained by the defense on your play at all. In fact, on the very play you talk about, they had taken the offense back 15 yards with pursuit, etc., but then that would be reduced by five yards because of the inadvertent face mask. So they still got the team back ten yards.

I think your confusion in reading the rules may be due to the fact that you can have several running plays on the same play, but only one loose ball play. In the pitch play, you have a loose ball play, followed by a running play, on the same down. Don't equate a down with a play, they are different.”

To me a simply reply is one a friend on this forum uses a lot...>Read Rule 2!

Rule 2-33
ART. 1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:
a. A free kick or scrimmage kick other than post-scrimmage kick fouls.
b. A legal forward pass.
c. A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.
d. The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble..

Thus, the run/actiojn PRECEDING the loose ball make is covered under a loose ball play. The run AFTER the loose ball is enforced as a running play (2-33-2)

Rule 2-33 ART. 2 . . . A running play is any action not included in Article 1, including the related run as in 2-41-9a.

Seems straight-forward.

Yes, you enforced it correctly. The end of the run was where the QB was brought down- which you state was by the face mask- which leads me to wonder should it not have been a 15 yard personal foul. The five yard penalty is for grasping the facemask. If it was enough to tackle him with it you've got a different foul altogether.

A tackle by the facemask is going to be 15 yards every time.

As MTUMP said, this goes back to the Rule 2 definition. In this case, the type of play was a running play which makes the basic spot the end of the run.

Under all but one, fouls by the defense are always enforced from the basic spot.

Straight-forward it is not
 

I agree with most of what you have said. but there is one important fact that is left out.

THIS IS COMING STRAIGHT OUT THE BOOK AS IT IS WRITTEN. I Quote,

"While it is possible to have several running plays during a down, with each one having its own basic spot for penalty enforcement (where the related run ended), there can only be one loose ball play during a down. Rule 10-3-1d states in part" also includes the run (or runs) which precedes such legal pass, legal or illegal kick or fumble" (from in or behind the neutral zone). This means it includes all actions from the time of the snap to the end of the "loose-ball play." When any foul occurs during a free kick, scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass (including the snap) or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone - even if several of these actions happen during the same down - the basic spot remains the same: the previous spot, which is the spot of the snap or free kick (Football Fundamental IX-6; 10.4.2 SITUATION B COMMENT)."


The above paragraph is saying that anything behind the Line of Scrimmage (LOS) remains a loose ball play until the ball goes beyond the LOS. From the NFHS 2014 Rules by Topic, page 245, 10.4.2 SITUATION B re-enforce this statement.

The facemask was incidental.
 

The facemask mask was incidental. During the tackle the facemask was grabbed. But either way, the fact regarding the basic spot remains unchanged according to this reference which is quoted from the book, word for word.

"While it is possible to have several running plays during a down, with each one having its own basic spot for penalty enforcement (where the related run ended), there can only be one loose ball play during a down. Rule 10-3-1d states in part" also includes the run (or runs) which precedes such legal pass, legal or illegal kick or fumble" (from in or behind the neutral zone). This means it includes all actions from the time of the snap to the end of the "loose-ball play." When any foul occurs during a free kick, scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass (including the snap) or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone - even if several of these actions happen during the same down - the basic spot remains the same: the previous spot, which is the spot of the snap or free kick (Football Fundamental IX-6; 10.4.2 SITUATION B COMMENT)."

The above paragraph is saying that anything behind the Line of Scrimmage (LOS) remains a loose ball play until the ball goes beyond the LOS. From the NFHS 2014 Rules by Topic, page 245, 10.4.2 SITUATION B re-enforce this statement.

Read this part again..."A loose-ball play is action during....."

then this..."The run or runs which precedes"

The snap had ended when the ball was possessed. The run did not precede the backward pass (snap) it followed.

I understand But.....
 

I understand exactly what you mean. But the point I believe you are missing is that, the play starts with a loose ball play. Which is the snap. Key words, "(In or Behind the Neutral Zone)" any actions from the snap, to the legal forward pass down field, is consider a loose ball play. Once a forward pass has happen, and in possession, now you have a running play unless there is a fumble or backward pass. If the ball is handed off, you still have a loose ball play while again, the keys (In or Behind the Neutral zone). Once beyond the neutral, you start another action. Take a look at rules by topic 10.4.2 SITUATION B, scenario (b) reinforce that.

I believe you are misreading the statement and rule.

The actions which result in a loose ball play happen in or behind the neutral zone (pass, fumble, kick, etc.), but the rule clearly states these actions all end when it is possessed or otherwise declared dead. So if the loose ball action is a forward pass, the pass ends when it is caught or incomplete. The loose ball play will include anything up to the end of the pass. The same thing for a fumble behind the line of scrimmage. It ends when the ball is possessed or otherwise declared dead. That also ends the loose ball play. If the ball is then passed, kicked or fumbled again behind the line of scrimmage, the length of the loose ball play is now extended.

Often the determination of loose ball plays and running plays during a down aren't determined until the down is complete. That's why we mark fumbles beyond the neutral zone with bean bags.

Please keep asking questions. The penalty enforcement rules can be very complex, but once you understand the concepts of basic spot, types of play and all-but-one, it becomes much more clear.

This is all correct.

This is where you are incorrect. A handoff is not something that triggers a loose ball play. Even if it did, there is nothing that says it remains a loose ball play UNTIL it crosses the neutral zone. A backward pass triggers a loose ball play if it happens in or behind the neutral zone, but it does not if it happen beyond the neutral zone. The loose ball play ends though once the backward pass is caught or otherwise declared dead.

Hope that helps!

The only loose-ball play on this is the snap. That loose-ball play ended when the QB gained possession. Anything that happens after that in this play is a run, because you can't have something that precedes something that didn't happen (the pass that never came.) If there had been another pass thrown, then you would have a loose-ball play ending with that pass.

But that is not what happened IN YOUR PLAY. There was no pass down field. There was only a snap. The snap ended when the QB cleanly possessed the ball. He ran, he was tackled. Running play for enforcement purposes.

Under your present reading, there is no such thing as a running play, ever, as all scrimmage plays begin with a snap.

The rule book can be complicated in parts. You enforced it correctly.

When it's you against the world, back the world.

Even with your clarification, I'd enforce it as a 15 yard mask.

Um. You have this backward. He, we, everyone here understands this enforcement perfectly. We have to. We see it literally a thousand times a season.

You don't. And you're not listening. Stop arguing and start listening.

One thing I love about this board is the no-nonsense approach. ;)

The one thing I have found about being in the military for 20 years is that one must stand alone to accomplish a goal. As i have received my response from the NFHS, i was correct. For all you OLD timers who refuse to pick up a book and read. (can't teach a old Dog new tricks) the rule reads from the time of the snap until there is a legal kick or forward pass, all actions ("IN OR BEHIND") the basic spot (LOS) the enforcement will remains the same regardless of the actions which takes place, The "Previous Spot"..It remains a Loose Ball Play and ends when there is a forward pass or kick... Once the ball goes beyond the LOS, and is secured, then you will have a running play form that point forward.

As the rules states, A loose Ball play is started from the snap, and any action that takes plkace while the ball is behind the LOS, it still remains a loose ball play...................

Reading is fundamental.........................

That is completely untrue and is verified by the very basic rules that have already been posted.

Whatever it is you think you have from the NFHS, you've either misunderstood or misrepresented to them. You actually contradict yourself in your own post.

Reading certainly is fundamental. So is understanding Rule 2.

I'm going to add one thing and see if it clarifies anything for you. Let's break your original play down and put it on a time line.

From your post:
http://i58.tinypic.com/vet3cj.jpg

As you can see, and supported by rule, the loose ball play is over when the snap was caught and the running play began. There was never another loose ball of any kind in this play.

The fact that the play happened behind the LOS is immaterial in this case.

Hmm...been in for 15, never had that lesson. What I have learned is that:

A: When people don't listen to reality, people die, and
B: People that beat their chest about being in the military generally didn't accomplish much.

If it helps, I'm not an "old dog." I'm not even a football official. I'm learning the rules so if I decide to make the plunge, I know what I'm doing (or are less unknowing of what I'm doing.)

You're being obtuse now.

The case book comment you referenced includes the following: "When any foul occurs during a free kick, scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass (including the snap) or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone...even if several of these actions happen during the same down...the basic spot remains the same, the previous spot which is the spot of the snap or free kick."

The facemask foul in your OP didn't happen during one of those events. Therefore, it's a foul during a running play, with the basic spot being the end of the related run.

So now there is no such thing as a running play, EVER, since every scrimmage down begins with a snap.

In his definition the loose ball play turns into a running play when the runner crosses the neutral zone. I've had people struggle with loose ball play and running play, but nobody has ever struggled this way. Hopefully we can kindly explain it so he understands it correctly. Don't get rude or mean to someone trying to learn.

It has been explained, and I'm not so sure he's trying to learn.

Sorry bison but if you go back to his OP, you will see he contends a snap is a loose ball play, according to his reading of Rules By Topic. Greater, wiser minds than I have tried to point out the error of his theory.

He digs his hole further by calling us OLD timers, emphasis his, and insults us by claiming we don't read the rule book. At some point stupid is as stupid does.