Can offens grab facemask

umpjim

BB guy. Watching ESPN Monday nite and they show Steve Smith of Ravens stiff arm defender and then pulling him to to the ground via the face mask. Can offense use the face mask?

APG

Both the offense and defense have the same rules in regard to facemask in the NFL. It's not a penalty simply to grab the facemask. It only becomes a penalty when they fail to release immediately and controls the opponent or grabs and pulls, twists, push, or pull the facemask.

Saying that, I haven't seen the play in question so can't comment.

umpjim

APG wrote
Both the offense and defense have the same rules in regard to facemask in the NFL. It's not a penalty simply to grab the facemask. It only becomes a penalty when they fail to release immediately and controls the opponent or grabs and pulls, twists, push, or pull the facemask.

Saying that, I haven't seen the play in question so can't comment.

I'll post some screen grabs tomorrow. IMHO, with an official looking right at it nothing was called. What got me was the ESPN twits.

Reffing Rev.

I can count on one fist the number of times I've seen a ball carrier flagged for grabbing an opponent's facemask.

ajmc

Reffing Rev. wrote
I can count on one fist the number of times I've seen a ball carrier flagged for grabbing an opponent's facemask.

Can't speak for NFL rules, but otherwise NFHS 9-4-3-h prohibits "grasping an opponents facemask", and applies to EVERY player.

umpjim

ajmc wrote
Can't speak for NFL rules, but otherwise NFHS 9-4-3-h prohibits "grasping an opponents facemask", and applies to EVERY player.

Can't get a pic uploaded due to 100kb limit so you will have to go here to see pics: Laredo Optimist LL Baseball: Albums

Click on the "football" album

ajmc

umpjim wrote
Can't get a pic uploaded due to 100kb limit so you will have to go here to see pics: Laredo Optimist LL Baseball: Albums Click on the "football" album

Can't see any "grasping" in any of these photos.

umpjim

ajmc wrote
Can't see any "grasping" in any of these photos.

You would have to see the video to understand that the impetus for the defenders trajectory derived from the runners arm, wherever it was attached to, benefit of the doubt, horse collar, otherwise facemask?

MD Longhorn

umpjim wrote
You would have to see the video to understand that the impetus for the defenders trajectory derived from the runners arm, wherever it was attached to, benefit of the doubt, horse collar, otherwise facemask?

I have seen the video. There's no grasping here, not once. "impetus for the defenders trajectory derived from the runners arm"????? That has nothing to do with anything at all. (And merely saying the term "horse collar" in the context of this play, where contact was entirely from the front, is particularly worrisome).

ajmc

umpjim wrote
You would have to see the video to understand that the impetus for the defenders trajectory derived from the runners arm, wherever it was attached to, benefit of the doubt, horse collar, otherwise facemask?

Don't know which rule code your suggesting, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear under ANY of them.

JasonLJ

Reffing Rev. wrote
I can count on one fist the number of times I've seen a ball carrier flagged for grabbing an opponent's facemask.

I've called it twice. Can't grasp the facemask, period.

Welpe

umpjim wrote
wherever it was attached to, benefit of the doubt, horse collar, otherwise facemask?

Here's where I think the disconnect lies. We are not supposed to guess why a player's head jerks around or how he suddenly and violently is yanked back to the ground. In these plays, if we don't know, we don't throw (or shouldn't anyways).

Many times guessing on facemasks and horsecollars result in an incorrect foul being called. This is a concept a fair amount of coaches don't seem to grasp and can't believe that we missed an "obvious" facemask.

umpjim

MD Longhorn wrote
I have seen the video. There's no grasping here, not once. "impetus for the defenders trajectory derived from the runners arm"????? That has nothing to do with anything at all. (And merely saying the term "horse collar" in the context of this play, where contact was entirely from the front, is particularly worrisome).

I'm a BB guy so I ignorantly used that term to refer to grabbing the front of the shoulder pads. So, without solid evidence of why the defender is going down no official will call it a facemask. Makes sense. Thanks.

MD Longhorn

umpjim wrote
I'm a BB guy so I ignorantly used that term to refer to grabbing the front of the shoulder pads. So, without solid evidence of why the defender is going down no official will call it a facemask. Makes sense. Thanks.

Players grab each other all the time. Defenders go down all the time. It's football.

Adam

Ball carriers will often stiff-arm a defender on his face without grasping it.

umpjim

Adam wrote
Ball carriers will often stiff-arm a defender on his face without grasping it.

I'm sure thats what the first two pics show, a stiff arm, the other two pics show the defender seemingly being pulled to the ground by who knows what. If you don't know what you don't call nuttin.

HLin NC

So, without solid evidence of why the defender is going down no official will call it a facemask. Makes sense. Thanks.

Without solid evidence that a pitcher balked, the first baseman dropped the ball, the ball hit the batter, would you rule a balk, safe, award first base?

Of course the potential offender is Steve Smith so anything is possible:rolleyes:

Sturno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7682UPN15us

Here's the video....and if none of the deep coverage officials threw anything on it, my guess is it wasn't the facemask he grabbed, maybe under his chin/neck and shoved off...?

From that angle...you have to have nothing....hence, my signature - "Assumption Is The Mother Of All Screw-ups....."

umpjim

Sturno wrote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7682UPN15us

Here's the video....and if none of the deep coverage officials threw anything on it, my guess is it wasn't the facemask he grabbed, maybe under his chin/neck and shoved off...?

From that angle...you have to have nothing....hence, my signature - "Assumption Is The Mother Of All Screw-ups....."

Interesting. In BB we strive to make decisions while stopped (not always successfully). In football the officials have to make decisions while moving. I guess that's why replay hit football before it hit baseball. Among other things.

JRutledge

umpjim wrote
Interesting. In BB we strive to make decisions while stopped (not always successfully). In football the officials have to make decisions while moving. I guess that's why replay hit football before it hit baseball. Among other things.

Baseball is one of the rare sports where you can do things while standing. Not the case in many other sports like football and basketball.

And in this video I see nothing that stands out as a foul. For one, we cannot see the actual contact with the stiff arm. Hard to make any concrete decision when the officials on the field saw this play life and from better angles.

Peace