casebook 9.6.1 wide receiver A1 runs a pass route along the sideline. He takes two steps out of bounds and goes airborne. While in the air he: (a) bats the ball to A2 who cates the ball; or(b) catches the ball and landes inbounds..... ruling in A and b the ball remains live and the catch is legal?? Isn't A1 out of bounds thus making the ball out of bounds?? if not help me see the light...LOL in either case it is illegal participation, but I am of the mind that the ball became dead when it touched a player who was out of bounds...if he isn't a player he is an object who is out of bounds??

The CATCH is legal, but there is still a penalty for illegal participation in both cases. For a catch to be legal and live, the receiver must not be touching OOB when touching the ball (dead ball then), possession must be gained, and one foot in bounds. Again, the CATCH is legal, but there will still be a penalty on the play for IP. I like to bean bag the spot whenever a receiver goes OOB on a play. Do other wings to this?

I completely understand the Illegal Participation...I guess it is basketball officiating that is getting me here. To me when he goes OOB until he steps back in he is OOB and thus the ball is OOB, just kind of a weird way to look at it in my opinion that he is not OOB..

Yes, basketball officiating is getting to you. In basketball, the ball and the player would be OOB. Not so in football. In this play, the WR is not OOB because he is not touching OOB when he touches the ball. Can't apply bball principles here.

2-28-1
A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, other than another player or game official, who is on or outside the sideline or end line.

Yes football and basketball are opposite on OOB. However Schultj I am wondering why you bag the spot where they go OOB? That is never the spot of a foul. The foul for IP is where they come back IB.

No. No reason to.

Warren

I agree with your assessment....no need to bag the player going out. Drop the flag when he returns....

You should drop a bag unless hit was a bang bang type situation. The bag says you saw the player go OOB on his own.
New to NCAA this season will be to drop our hat instead. Seems to me that players never go OOB on their own on dry days either!

So in all reality if it were a 40 yard pass down field,
A1 could tip the ball into A2 andthe pass is complete for
a 40 yard gain........And then the 15 yard penalty is
enforced. So the result of the play is a 25 yard gain.
Is this correct.

Hint... What kind of play is this and what is the enforcement spot?

Loose ball play.....where is it enforced from??

let me guess!!!
 

Maybe the previous spot????

Casebook 9.6.1 a: If A1 never returns to the field of play do you have IP?

nvfoa15


If he never returns to the field of play you don't have IP but as soon as the ball is touched by a player out of bounds the pass is incomplete.

yes you do have IP he never returns to the field in situation A above, but he tipped the ball thus participating illegalling in the play...

If he tips the ball to another player and then lands OOB (i.e. never returns to the field), it is still IP. If he were to be standing or running OOB, jump, catch the ball, and then land OOB, you just have an incomplete pass (no foul).

OK! Let me run to my car and get my rule books...
 

The posted play is exactly as written in the case book: 9.6.1 SITUATION D. The NF's ruling is (for (a))is a legal catch and A1 is guilty of IP. Rule references are 2-4-1, 2-28, 4-3.

Rule 2-4-1 deals with what is a catch - no argument there. Rule 2-28 has to do with players, etc out of bounds: "A player ... is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, ... who is on or outside the sideline or endline." Thus A1 is out of bounds when he contacts the ground beyond the sideline. Rule 2-28-3 says: "A loose ball is out of bounds when it touches anything, including a player or game official, who is out of bounds."

Therefore, IMHO, in play (a) this can't be a legal catch. A1 is out of bounds when he touched the ground (twice) beyond the sideline. When the ball is touched (or touches) by him it is also out of bounds. The fact that A1 is airborne at the time that he touches the ball is immaterial - he has established himself out of bounds!
A2 does not catch the ball (play over on A1's touch/bat) and no IP either.

[Edited by nvfoa15 on Aug 22nd, 2003 at 12:19 PM]

Here is 2-28-1: "A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is TOUCHING anything, other than another player or game official, who is on or outside the sideline or endline."

The key word here is touching. If the player has jumped in the air he is not touching anything OOB, therefore he is not OOB. In NF rules there is no "establishing" or "re-establishing" one's self in or out of bounds. If the player's foot is on the line, he is OOB; if he jumps in the air, he no longer OOB as soon as his foot is no longer touching the line, whether or not stepped on the ground in-bounds first

PSU213,
Your statement above seems to contradict itself. If A1 is running down the field, along the sideline, inbounds, he has "established" himself inbounds (and remains so!). When he steps on the line he "establishes" himself out of bounds and remains so until he returns inbounds. The mere fact that A1 jumps in the air does not make him inbounds - touching the ground/player etc. in the field of play makes him inbounds!

Nvfoa,
That was my original question on the post. I know I was using the basketball reasoning that you establish yourself in or out of bounds....but in football that does not hold true...you are where you are touching at the time... and since you can't go out of bounds without being forced, and then participate in the play, if he isn't touching but participates (taps the ball) he is participating illegally...I agree if he has his foot touching OOB when he taps the ball it is just OOB and no penalty....

Ok. A player who is airborne is neither inbounds nor out of bounds until he contacts ground/player etc.! Thus no ruling can be made utill he does so?

NVFOA the fact that he went out of bounds without being forced makes it illegal participation for him to touch the pass unless he is out of bounds, which since he isn't makes his tip illegal participation.....kinda weird...but the rules..

Exactly. In the original play, it would seem to me that he is considered to be inbounds when he bats the ball, since, by rule, he is not OOB.

he is neither in or out of bounds in the first instance, but since he did go out of bounds without being forced, he is no longer allowed to participate in the play thus illegal participation, that is also why you must come down with at least one foot inbounds to complete a catch...

If player A goes out of bounds and DOES NOT RETURN and tips or bats a pass the play is dead. The pass is incomplete. Art 2.28.1 "A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, other than another player or game official, who is on or outside the sidelines or end line.

So if the player is out of bounds and makes no attempt to re-enter the field o play as soon as he touches the pass it is incomplete.

Chayos,
Read the situation..the player leaps into the air before he tips the pass....and as has been discussed above and on page 1 if the player is not touching anything they are not out of bounds or inbounds...9.6 is the case book reference...

That's not entirely true. If we go back to the original play, the A player is running OOB, jumps, tips the ball, and the ball is caught in bounds by a teammate. In this situation it does not matter where he lands, the ball remains live and it is an IP foul. Note that in the case book play they do not specify whether he lands in bounds or OOB on the tip play--it therefore is not relevent to the ruling. If he actually catches the ball, then where he first contacts the ground becomes important (in bounds: IP foul; OOB: incomplete pass, no foul).