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Old Sat Nov 30, 2013, 10:03pm
ddn ddn is offline
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Hide Out Play in MHSAA Championship Game

4th down from about B's 40. A runs off a bunch of players and a bunch come in on the HL's side. A44 stops just short of going off the field and stays on the field. The HL is a step or two on the field and the A44 is behind him. A lines up in a field goal try formation, they snap to the "kicker" and he throws to an uncovered A44 for the TD.

According to A's coach, they had asked the officials about it and they allowed it.

Here's an article on it. Hopefully there will be video.

Trick play changes momentum in West Catholic's Division 5 championship - MLive.com

Last edited by ddn; Sun Dec 01, 2013 at 07:31pm.
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Old Sun Dec 01, 2013, 07:44am
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No video but using a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive is illegal. From your description, the player was not inside the numbers at some point between the RFP and snap so there is illegal formation. If the wing allowed a player to get behind him, that is on him. NF mechanics were changed a few years back to start on the sideline and the move in if necessary.
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Old Sun Dec 01, 2013, 12:43pm
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Every time stuff like this is allowed to happen, it just legitimizes this type of play in others' minds. It's just too bad, really.
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Old Sun Dec 01, 2013, 12:55pm
ddn ddn is offline
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Every time stuff like this is allowed to happen, it just legitimizes this type of play in others' minds. It's just too bad, really.
Especially when it happens in a championship game.
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Old Sun Dec 01, 2013, 02:09pm
ddn ddn is offline
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Found the video: MHSAA - Streaming live high school sporting events from NFHS Network

Go to 1:40:00 in.

HL was just a step on field, you can just see the A player's legs at the 33 yard line.

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Old Sun Dec 01, 2013, 03:53pm
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Actually it starts at 1:41:35. I note the wing had been standing in the white on prior plays.

On the previous play, the whole right o-line was off.

I am going to try and download that clip for future training purposes. One of our area schools won a state championship back in '05 pulling a similar stunt.
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Old Sun Dec 01, 2013, 04:36pm
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This play is properly penalized as illegal participation, 15 yards from the previous spot. The following case play is similar (the free kick is irrelevant to the ruling).

9.6.4 SITUATION B: Following a kickoff return, A1 and A2 enter the field while A3, A4 and A5 move toward the sideline. A5 stops within the 9-yard marks while A3 and A4 continue to the team box. The ball is snapped without a huddle and the quarterback throws a forward pass to A5, who has gone downfield as a wide receiver.

RULING: This play is illegal because a pretended substitution is used to deceive the opponents. The penalty of 15 yards for the illegal participation foul will be administered from the previous spot since the foul occurred at the snap. (9-6-4c)
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Old Sun Dec 01, 2013, 05:40pm
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TV news clip- receiver lined up out of the frame, starts at about :43 in.

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Old Mon Dec 02, 2013, 01:02pm
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Illegal/legal Fake FG

I had a friend from Michigan run this play by me this morning. Curious what you all have on this play

MIHideOutPlay from Charles Allison on Vimeo

I have nuttin'. The player in question appears to be within the numbers at the RFP, never leaves the field, and (I'll assume) we was set at the snap. If he left the field and/or entered the field just prior to the snap, then I have an issue.

-Josh
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Old Mon Dec 02, 2013, 01:20pm
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It's a "pretend substitution", IMO. Illegal participation. 15 yards, touchdown does not stand.
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Old Mon Dec 02, 2013, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
I had a friend from Michigan run this play by me this morning. Curious what you all have on this play

MIHideOutPlay from Charles Allison on Vimeo

I have nuttin'. The player in question appears to be within the numbers at the RFP, never leaves the field, and (I'll assume) we was set at the snap. If he left the field and/or entered the field just prior to the snap, then I have an issue.

-Josh
Are you an official, or a fan?

If a fan... ok - just be advised this is illegal.

If an official ... there's a rule that specifically addresses using fake substitutions to hide players like this one.

Blatantly illegal - as if the play was filmed for training purposes to illustrate the rule.
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Old Mon Dec 02, 2013, 02:01pm
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Someone posted this case play on FB, but I don't have my books to verify:

9.6.4 SITUATION B: Following a kickoff return, A1 and A2 enter the field while A3, A4 and A5 move toward the sideline. A5 stops within the 9-yard marks while A3 and A4 continue to the team box. The ball is snapped without a huddle and the quarterback throws a forward pass to A5, who has gone downfield as a wide receiver. RULING: This play is illegal because a pretended substitution is used to deceive the opponents. The penalty of 15 yards for the illegal participation foul will be administered from the previous spot since the foul occurred at the snap. (9-6-4c)
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Old Mon Dec 02, 2013, 02:02pm
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Isn't that the same play being discussed here?

Hide Out Play in MHSAA Championship Game

As I posted in that thread, it is illegal participation at the snap, 15 yards, replay the down.
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Old Mon Dec 02, 2013, 02:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
I had a friend from Michigan run this play by me this morning. Curious what you all have on this play

MIHideOutPlay from Charles Allison on Vimeo

I have nuttin'. The player in question appears to be within the numbers at the RFP, never leaves the field, and (I'll assume) we was set at the snap. If he left the field and/or entered the field just prior to the snap, then I have an issue.
And if that were the only applicable rules provision, so would everybody else. But there's a more general provision against use of a pretended substitution procedure...and what else can you call it when one of a bunch of players ostensibly subbing out together stops inches from the sideline and becomes the receiver?

This rule was adopted to allow for a more relaxed atmosphere during substitutions, knowing that departing players often slow down near their bench, so that teams with bench areas on opposite sidelines don't have to watch the opposite one like a hawk, and can plan their substitution more strategically, and neither do the officials. When hideout plays like this were legal, it was possible to gain an advantage even against a defense that knew it was a possibility. Cornerbacks would have to keep count of the entire offense rather than being able to play strategically.
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Old Mon Dec 02, 2013, 02:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
Isn't that the same play being discussed here?

Hide Out Play in MHSAA Championship Game

As I posted in that thread, it is illegal participation at the snap, 15 yards, replay the down.
Yes, I didn't see that post...opps

-Josh
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