Instant Replay in HS Championship Games?
 

Is there any discussion with the NFHS about allowing the use of instant replay at state championship games? Was watching a game (Wisconsin) earlier and saw a play that most likely would have been overturned had instant replay review been available.

I think it has been talked about in the Ohio championships.

For football, Tom? Ohio uses the state-adoption (and extremely limited) replay for last shot in basketball, but I've not heard any suggestion for football. Seems like an awful can of worms with absolutely zero rules guidance for implementation.

Obviously the NFHS would have to come up with their guidelines first, and then allow each state to adopt it or not. I was just curious...As the coverage of these state title games gets better, there will be a controversial play, somewhere, that will end a game. Then Deadspin will pick it up, and ESPN, and whatever else...Maybe it's just me, but I think it should be used in states that have the capability.

Ideally, but not necessarily. A lot of states use shot clocks in basketball, for example, with zero guidance or approval from NFHS.

Ah, you're right. I didn't think of that.

Two games so far -- one was 44-15 until the last minute and the other ended 35-0 with a running clock most of the fourth quarter.

Must have been the Black Hawk game (D7) you're talking about. I didn't see that one -- I was working. We worked their second round game and I'm not surprised they ran the table.

It was in the Black Hawk game. The ball must have been hard to follow for your crew. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone run that offense the way they do.

But the play I mentioned above was a catch along the sideline. It was called a catch on the field, but probably would have been reversed had it been reviewed. By no means did it have any major effect on the game, judging by the final score.

Let me guess...full spin series? Or some other 3- or 4-back mesh?

My crew? We didn't work today. I was a spectator at the D6 game and just got done having a few with the WH, who I came down specifically to see.

No I meant when you did there game a few weeks ago.

It's an option offense, they do a great job of hiding the ball. The quarterback always takes the snap from under center and sort of leans forward into the line as he's handing to the fullback. I'm amazed they don't fumble more often.

Reminds me of Ozaukee's wing T and veer offense somewhat...but with less motion.

I had Arrowhead for the Level 2 game...and had them last year against Germantown. They have got it going on over there.

I was there for that one, broadcasting on WTKM (Hartford) I'm in Madison right now actually getting ready for their title game. I'll be bringing up this debate on the pregame show!

We didn't have any problems with it. Really good team.

The D3 crew this morning may be the best officiating crew I've ever seen at state.

I didn't get to see any of that game. Got to the stadium just as the game was finishing.

There was an INT returned for a touchdown in the Div 1 game that apparently was not a touchdown and should have been a touchback. More reason for replay!!!

I kid...sort of...

If you "didn't see the play" and agree that the officiating crew was competent to be working this particular game, why would you presume there was, "More reason for replay!!!".

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to give the benefit of whatever doubt to the officials working the game, than to whatever source led you to believe,
"There was an INT returned for a touchdown in the Div 1 game that apparently was not a touchdown and should have been a touchback"?

The replay, based on multiple accounts, was clear that the ball was out well before he crossed the goal line.

<iframe src='http://www.snappytv.com/snap/arrowhead-s-charlie-reuteman-int-return-for-td-vs-franklin-about-wiaa-football-div-1-arrowhead-vs-franklin-on-fox-sports-wisconsin-tv_0a?w=640&h=390' width='640' height='390' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe>

You decide for yourself what the call should have been. The score was 23-17 in favor of red before the INT. They converted the 2PC, so now it's 31-17 when it should have been 23-17 still with white taking over at the 20. Who knows what would have happened from there, but that's a huge swing that could have been corrected with replay.

While it may not give a reason to impose instant replay, as the only good angle would have been a goal line camera and assuming that most states are only going to be able to use a live tv feed- as it would be mega-expensive to do otherwise-would it not be cheaper to use a 7 man crew and thus have a better chance the wing is able to cover the pylon?

For this particular play, there are a couple of replays that show the ball clearly out well before the goal line.

But you're right...that wouldn't be the case for every play. Not sure whether or not the state would pay the TV crew to add a couple of goal line cameras to review scoring plays or whatever they would need.

If it's a choice between a couple $hundred to add 2 officials or a couple $thousand to add a couple cameras, which do you suppose they would choose?

The problem with switching to 7 for playoffs is that most HS officials don't know those mechanics and have few opportunities to work them during the season. It's risky to switch during the tournament.

Keeping in mind High School Football, even at the State Championship level, is an interscholastic athletic event, if better coverage is the actual objective there are other far more consistent ways to achieve the goal.

Some areas still provide coverage for HS games with 4 man crews, many have expanded coverage to 5 man configurations with some recognizing the significant improvements in the talent and complexity levels of the current era game itself, and now assign 6, or even in some circumstances, 7 man crews.

The one factor all 3 major rule codes are in total agreement on is the size of the field football is played on.

It would seem far more productive, as well as cost effective and consistent, to increase the size of the officiating crew than inject an inconsistent external review mechanism there are currently no specific rule guidelines to follow.

Television replay is a cat, when let out of a bag without a lot of careful planning and control, can cause a lot of consequences nobody is capable of handling.

Went through it last year- we did 7 man for the regionals with little to no "show prep" for which it was obvious. By the following week's final, we did much better.

I had downloaded the CCA 7 man manual and think I looked at the GHSA manual online too.

Our state now mandates 7-man crews for all playoff games after the first round. In the first round, 7-man is the default unless both coaches agree to use only 5.

The last regular-season week here has no playoff implications, so many associations will use that week as a "practice week" for their playoff-eligible officials to get some 7-man experience.

I know baseball (at least in Illinois) adds an extra umpire at some point in the postseason.

In Wisconsin, not every conference uses three officials for regular season varsity basketball games. That changes at a certain point in the playoffs.

Seems to only make sense for football to do the same. I get it's a money issue, but someone, somewhere is going to look really bad one day because a missed call could have been prevented by having more officials on the field. It's a small price to pay to get more calls right, IMO.

As someone who's worked as a college deep wing the past two years, it's not a position you can just throw someone on and expect they'll do more good than harm.

In PA most leagues use 6 regular season, and 7 for post season. We dont usually have any hiccups when going to 7. Every playoff official has to go to a 7 man mechanics meeting prior to playoffs.


Having worked deep wing at the HS and College level. I dont want to belittle the position, but it is not the hardest of them to pick up if you apply a ounce of thought to it, and you are a good official to begin with.

I disagree that you could just throw someone in those positions. It takes a lot of discipline to work those positions as when you have a play, you have to be ready for it and know what your responsiblities are. That is the reason I think adding more officials could be a problem. I am not saying with the right training you could not work the position, but many newer deep wings have no idea how to move or what to look at if they are used to working a short wing or a back judge.

Peace

I've seen a lot of deep wings not do the right things when "thrown in" at the college JV level. Proper ball rotation, keeping a proper cushion, knowing their responsibilities on spots, goal line, etc. Pylon plays. Communication and working well with short wings. Proper punt coverage and reverse mechanics.

I'd been working football for a long time and it took me a while to feel comfortable back there. Now if I'm not working R, I actually like it back there (although I'd rather be a B).

We work 5 in the regular season. Going from 6 to 7 *should* be trivial -- you already have two deep wings. Going from 5 to 7 is a whole different story. Throwing people back there with no experience? They will (trust me) try to step up and get spots instead of keeping the cushion and letting the short wing come downfield and do his job.

I generally agree going to 7-man with guys who don't know 7-man mechanics can lead to problems. Someone mentioned to me once that if you did by having the other 5 guys work their mechanics and having the 2 deep wings stay deep/wide would still be better than having only 5 guys. There's some truth to that. They won't worked a perfect 7-man game, but they still may be better than a 5-man crew.

Remember, the original question on this thread was about the viability of, "Using Instant Replay in State Championship Games".

Presuming quality officials (for the most part) are selected for post season contests, it seems expanding crews sizes, with appropriate instruction and concentration, offers an effective, practical and available alternative to imposing any level of Instant Reply to the High School game.

Even officials at the highest level of any sport get calls wrong. I don't doubt though that more calls, especially like the one in the video I posted, will be called right on the field if they add more officials.

Once again, the question relates tp the viability of Instant Replay at the High School Football level..

Although there have been significant improvements in the quality of High School football in recent years, there is no perfection in Coaching, no perfection in actual playing of the game, why would anyone expect absolute perfection in officiating.

On field officiating, with minimal exceptions, has served the game extremely well for a long period of time, and there is precious little evidence to suggest a major revision is necessary, or even widely called for. This seems lile another classic example of, "If it's not broken, don't fix it".

Unfortunately everyone expects the officials to be perfect despite the imperfection of others. A good saying: "officiating, the only avocation where you have to start perfect and then get better".

On field officiating has served the game well, but the use of replay at the higher levels along with the increased use of talk radio and social media, everyone is now an expert. Replay is good, but it creates a higher expectation of perfection.

Once again, the question relates to the viability of Instant Replay at the High School Football level..

Replay at high school level, logistically is just to hard. BTW, that was clearly a fumble in the video, and should have been a touchback.

Why is it logistically too hard? In states where games are played at a Division 1 college stadium, shouldn't the facilities already exist? I don't know all that goes into implementing an instant replay system...

As I said in the other thread...It's my opinion that replay should be used in the state championship games.

Rich's point is why play the last game under different rules than the rest of the season?

Yes, I understand his point. It's not really under different rules...just that they have a better chance of ultimately getting the play right. It's the same concept as them using instant replay for last second shots in basketball. Why not use the available evidence to get it right?

Just to use the play from the game earlier as an example...that play was a huge swing in the game. It was 23-17 Red when the interception happened. After the play was erroneously ruled a touchdown, Red went for two to make it 31-17, instead of it being White ball at the 20 and down by six. It may not have mattered anyways, as red pulled away the rest of the night...but still, there's no way to predict what would have happened.

There will be a play, someday somewhere, that will be called incorrectly on the field and affect the outcome of the game.

You don't really think they leave all those expensive cameras sitting around out in the elements waiting for the next game to come along, do you? And a production truck parked behind every stadium in the country?

The technical equipment sitting in the replay booth is a mere fraction of the equipment necessary to pull off replay. Most state athletic associations aren't going to go to the expense or can't afford to do it. NC plays 8 finals in 3 different stadiums. Time Warner Cable broadcasts & replays the NC games but they are only in the bigger cities. The DVD copy of my state final last year basically used two camera angles, mid-field and a handheld field camera.

As I said previously, bumping to 7 man is more practical and affordable.

I'm not an idiot. Who owns the buzzer from the booth to the referee on the field? Seems to me all they need is a broadcast with instant replay capability. Correct me if I'm wrong...seems like a plug and play kind of a thing. If you or anyone else can detail the technical side of an instant replay operation, please do so.

Obviously it would be a state by state thing, depending on how the games are broadcast, if at all.

There already were -- in many other playoff games this year and every year. Forgive me if I don't cry me a river if a call gets missed and the wonders of instant replay don't rush in to make everything right.

Consider yourself forgiven. You have your opinion, I have mine. End of story.

Threads wander. If it gets too far off the rails we'll nudge it back in that direction.

Posting the same thing over and over again doesn't help.

How much do you think it costs?

How much do you think a state actually makes on a final?

Do you really think it wants to blow it on replay? Two cameras on the fifty and a handheld sideline camera isn't going to give you the coverage you desire.

Apparently you had some rooting interest in whatever game in WI got ruled a TD. I doubt your state wants to blow several thousands of dollars to rectify the call. Run it by them and see what they say.

.

Not a plug and play.

For an accurate replay system you need a minimum of 7 cameras.....
Midfield (1)
Goal Lines (2)
Sidelines (2)
20 yard-lines (2)

Anything less and you get yourself into situations where you can't possibly get the angles necessary and have to start making exceptions to what is and isn't reviewable. Too much to deal with rules-wise for one game a year.

Add the camera operators, the production crew in the truck, the man upstairs, video monitors upstairs, and all the trimmings, and you have instant replay capabilities.....

And a ton of cost that goes with it. This isn't AV club or local cable access personnel that's operating this.

Replay is not viable and not practical at the High School level.

I'd rather talk about why the referee wasn't standing at the goal line ready to rule on this fumble, which should've been easy to get.

I know I've been there -- it's easy to want to officiate the blocks as you work in reverse mechanics, but the number one job is getting to the goal line - you have 4 other officials who are cleaning up behind you.

The other issue is defining the replay rules. The NCAA replay rule is 6 pages long. Sections include Purpose and Philosophy; Eligibility for Instant Replay; Reviewable Plays (scoring plays, passes, dead ball and loose ball, kicks, miscellaneous, limitations on reviewable plays); Instant Replay Personnel, Equipment and Location; Initiating the Replay Process, Reviewing an On-field Ruling (procedures and restrictions); and Reversing an On-Field Ruling.

NFHS or individual states would need to address each of those things and it would only apply to the crews who work the final. It would be the first time any of the people involved would be using the rules, process, and technology. That's a recipe for disaster.

FCS uses replay only on the playoffs, but they are using experienced replay officials and equipment.

Replay is not needed at the HS level.

Agreed, this is something that in not broken, and doesn't need fixing.