fumble, then penalty, then run

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by whitehat

"Y"anked (as in 15 yard FM) not "ranked" ;-)..sorry about the typo. And yes we are talking NF. I agree with the enforcements.
I bring it up simply becasue we don't often use or have occassion to use that bean bag as a spot of enforcement and we might easily just make this a "tack on" penatly from the end of the last run, instead of the related run where the fumble and penalty occurred. Nice work guys!

Interesting ... almost every single time we bean bag, we do so because that's a possible spot of enforcement. I don't agree with the "not often" statement, and very much don't agree with the "might easily" part. At least ... not if you have done this very long.

[whitehat]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Interesting ... almost every single time we bean bag, we do so because that's a possible spot of enforcement. I don't agree with the "not often" statement, and very much don't agree with the "might easily" part. At least ... not if you have done this very long.

MD, just to clarify, we do use bean bags all the time: fumbles, end of kicks, momentum, etc. And, as you said, we do bean bag because it is a potential enforcement spot.

However, I have been officiating for 30 years and cannot remember more than a few times where we actualy needed to enforce from the bean bag spot on a fumble due to the way the play ended or when the penalty occurred. I have more often experienced bean bag spot enforcements in FC situations or scrimmage kick situations but seldom have I ever needed to use the bean bag spot from a fumble as an enforcemnt spot.

[xtremeump]

This is a great topic for me, I just worked a game with our Section Interpreter. Had a play with a B penalty then a fumble, I asked him about bagging the spot of the fumble and was told not to ??? His reasoning was spot foul penalty enforcement ??? And you can not recover the ball with dirty hands.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

This is a great topic for me, I just worked a game with our Section Interpreter. Had a play with a B penalty then a fumble, I asked him about bagging the spot of the fumble and was told not to ??? His reasoning was spot foul penalty enforcement ??? And you can not recover the ball with dirty hands.

But that's only if the official withholding the bean bag is the same one who threw the flag, because how else would he know the foul was by the defense?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

This is a great topic for me, I just worked a game with our Section Interpreter. Had a play with a B penalty then a fumble, I asked him about bagging the spot of the fumble and was told not to ??? His reasoning was spot foul penalty enforcement ??? And you can not recover the ball with dirty hands.

I find this incredibly hard to believe. Not bagging a fumble spot is on the evaluation form. And this spot might be used even if A recovers (the OP and the other thread as an example), especially if there's another foul (on either team) that you're not aware of.

[whitehat]

The only situation I can think of where throwing a bean bag might be unneccessary would be on a fumble by A behind the LOS. In that case if there is a foul during the loose ball, the spot of the fumble is irrelevant, it is a previous spot enforcement since it is a loose ball play (or if A fouls behind the previous spot then it is a spot foul). However, I still throw the bag even behind the LOS as it looks good and removes doubt as to whether we saw it or not.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by whitehat

However, I still throw the bag even behind the LOS as it looks good and removes doubt as to whether we saw it or not.

Every single year this seems to come up in our assn for discussion. Apparently the folk at the state level want us to refrain from bagging a fumble behind the LOS, since it is meaningless with regard to enforcement. Despite the fact that the many (coaches, some players, some fans) know what a beanbag means, I don't see the problem with bagging one behind the LOS.

However, it is the state evaluators you have to please during those playoff assignments. And they have their way made up on how they want beanbags to be used. So, might as well do it their way all season so you are used to it come playoff time.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Suudy

Despite the fact that the many (coaches, some players, some fans) know what a beanbag means, I don't see the problem with bagging one behind the LOS.

You don't drop a bean bag because there was a fumble. You drop a bean bag because you have a possible enforcement spot. Dropping a bean bag for a fumble 5 yards behind the LOS doesn't show everyone you are ruling fumble. It shows them you don't understand why the bean bag is used.

Another way this can get you into trouble is that fumble that gets recovered immediately at the same spot. You have the spot so the bean bag isn't really necessary. But if you rule fumble and don't drop the bean bag you'll get "you didn't drop your bean bag so you didn't rule fumble."

I don't see this as a big issue as long as you understand what you are doing and why you are doing it.

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I find this incredibly hard to believe. Not bagging a fumble spot is on the evaluation form. And this spot might be used even if A recovers (the OP and the other thread as an example), especially if there's another foul (on either team) that you're not aware of.

I was the LJ with the penalty and fumble, I was told to flag the spot of the foul and continue to officiate. Finding this incredibly hard to believe is offensive to me. I do what I am told to do by my White Hat. I am sorry that we may not have the same evalutation form. I am looking for assistance not being called a person not to believe.

[Reffing Rev.]

One of the things I cover in my pregame every week.
Bean Bag is for possible enforcements or violations.

My crew for some reason wants to bag muffed kicks. I always tell them no.

Last week 2nd half kickoff.
K kicks off short and before ball goes 10 yards or is touched by R or before R blocks K, K initiates contact, U has a flag down. Kick gets muffed by R80 and BJ threw a bean bag. Kick gets recovered by K. We're going to rekick after a 10 yard penalty. But R's coach wants to know why they can't decline the penalty and take the ball at the spot of first touching, because he thought that was why the bean bag was thrown.

So, this week's pregame will include another lecture on not bagging muffs.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

I was the LJ with the penalty and fumble, I was told to flag the spot of the foul and continue to officiate. Finding this incredibly hard to believe is offensive to me. I do what I am told to do by my White Hat. I am sorry that we may not have the same evalutation form. I am looking for assistance not being called a person not to believe.

Sorry you took offense. To be completely honest, though --- credibility is built (or lost) over time. It was certainly not my intent to offend you on purpose --- but I'm being honest when I say that the story is very very hard to buy. Let me just say this ... if it became known in any association I've worked on that a white hat was advising as you say he was advising, he would be corrected on that score in short order.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

... if it became known in any association I've worked on that a white hat was advising as you say he was advising, he would be corrected on that score in short order.

In defense of xtremeump, not all associations are quite so well disciplined. I have two WH's I've worked with that have quirks that they absolutely refuse to budge on.

The first flags A for illegal substitution every single time more than one player runs over to the sidelines to talk to a coach, claiming it is an unauthorized conference. He refuses to allow the players to go to the sidelines during an official's timeout. This despite numerous conversations during association meetings and small group discussions. When I initially challenged him on this (after getting blasted by him during a halftime discussion when I told B they could come over to the sidelines during an injury), I acquiesced because he was significantly more experienced than I was. And despite the long discussions, whenever this comes up in pre-games (I occasionally bring it up) his response is always "No while you are working on my crew."

The second absolutely refuses to accept flags for illegal use of the hands by B on a receiver. It is either a personal foul or nothing. I've brought this one up before on this board. This WH has made clear he will _always_ wave off such a flag.

And both of these guys continue to be WH's in our association. And always during discussion, they are corrected and keep silent. But come again Friday night, they ignore the entire discussion.

Not all associations are quite so well administered.