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paxsonref Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:47am

Helping the runner
 
Take a look at these two videos...do you have anything here?

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5m6AH7k8XD8?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/9j-lm6UgAw4?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

JRutledge Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:49am

No and No.

Those are pushing the pile and I could make a case that the runner was not helped by anyone behind him.

Peace

MD Longhorn Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:31pm

No for both.

InsideTheStripe Thu Sep 19, 2013 01:15pm

No on both counts.

paxsonref Thu Sep 19, 2013 01:23pm

I generally agree with the responses so far, but when a coach sees this and asks you why its not a penalty, it gets tougher to respond, since the rule book wording and case play is pretty clear.... how much would the player have to do in order for you to make this call?

bisonlj Thu Sep 19, 2013 01:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paxsonref (Post 905510)
I generally agree with the responses so far, but when a coach sees this and asks you why its not a penalty, it gets tougher to respond, since the rule book wording and case play is pretty clear.... how much would the player have to do in order for you to make this call?

This is not the type of play the rule is trying to prevent. It has more to do with holding up a player about to go down or directly pulling a player forward.

bigjohn Thu Sep 19, 2013 01:40pm

ASSISTING RUNNER
9.1 SITUATION: With fourth and goal from B’s 1-yard line, runner A1 is pushed
at the line of scrimmage from behind by A2 in an effort by A2 to get him into the
end zone. RULING: A2 has fouled by helping the runner. The foul carries a 5-yard
penalty. Therefore it will be fourth and goal from B’s 6-yard line if the penalty is
accepted

CT1 Thu Sep 19, 2013 02:00pm

No in both plays.

Suudy Thu Sep 19, 2013 02:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 905511)
This is not the type of play the rule is trying to prevent. It has more to do with holding up a player about to go down or directly pulling a player forward.

Or the Bush Push?

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bcl1127 Thu Sep 19, 2013 02:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paxsonref (Post 905510)
I generally agree with the responses so far, but when a coach sees this and asks you why its not a penalty, it gets tougher to respond, since the rule book wording and case play is pretty clear.... how much would the player have to do in order for you to make this call?

I think I have called this once, one time the player bear hugged the runner and pushed him forward, it was about as obvious as it could get from the Umpire spot...

In the plays shown above, I've got nothing.

MD Longhorn Thu Sep 19, 2013 02:41pm

See William the Refrigerator Perry.

That said ... I might have called the ND-USC play a penalty, had it been in one of my games. 2 hands directly on the ballcarrier being pushed is one thing. Crashing into a pile contacting more than just the ballcarrier is nothing.

JRutledge Thu Sep 19, 2013 02:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paxsonref (Post 905510)
I generally agree with the responses so far, but when a coach sees this and asks you why its not a penalty, it gets tougher to respond, since the rule book wording and case play is pretty clear.... how much would the player have to do in order for you to make this call?

It is not hard at all. There are rules and interpretations of the rules. The NF could put out an interpretation that clearly makes this illegal and us video as they did when they added the Horse Collar rule. This is a rather routine play and happens in almost every game. If the NF or your state said this was a "helping the runner" foul, they would say it was. I really do not care what coaches think the rule means, because rules have interpretations too. If that was my concern then every time a coach tells me what they "think" a rule has been for years (Like when they can contact an eligible receiver) I would never stop worrying. And the NF uses Simplified and Illustrated Rulebooks and could have covered this for years to explain what officials were not doing well. They have yet to do such a thing and there is a reason. Helping the runner is picking up or lifting someone to gain yards. Pushing the pile has never been seen as that by the rules makers at any level.

Peace

asdf Thu Sep 19, 2013 03:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905512)
ASSISTING RUNNER
9.1 SITUATION: With fourth and goal from B’s 1-yard line, runner A1 is pushed
at the line of scrimmage from behind by A2 in an effort by A2 to get him into the
end zone. RULING: A2 has fouled by helping the runner. The foul carries a 5-yard
penalty. Therefore it will be fourth and goal from B’s 6-yard line if the penalty is
accepted

And naturally, you have omitted the interpretation handed down by your state association (for years) that reads, "pushing the pile is not a foul."

bisonlj Thu Sep 19, 2013 03:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suudy (Post 905516)
Or the Bush Push?

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NCAA rule changed last year removing a push as an act that constitutes assisting the runner. If this happened this year there is no question it is NOT a foul.

Welpe Fri Sep 20, 2013 07:43am

I STILL think that at the time, the Bush Push should have been called. Not many (other than ND fans) agree with me.

Now it is a moot point and I'm thankful for that. :)

bigjohn Fri Sep 20, 2013 08:30am

2010 Point of Emphasis!

Pretty sure in these clips you can see
ASSISTING THE RUNNER
The NFHS Football Rules Committee develops competitive rules that promote fair play
and attempt to minimize risks to student-athletes. Fundamental to this process is the constant evaluation of the rules and how they impact the balance between offense and defense.
NFHS Rule 9-1 states: “An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist
his forward progress.” These acts, whether intentional or not, create an inequity between
the offensive and defensive teams and must be penalized without regard to down or field
position.
Pushing the pile forward has become more prominent at the high school level. This act
alone does not necessarily constitute a violation of Rule 9-1 unless an offensive player is in
direct contact with the runner and deliberately attempting to move him forward
. Pulling or
lifting a runner to assist his forward progress has no place in high school football. The sole
reason these acts occur is to give the offensive team an advantage. Football officials are
expected to penalize such actions so the balance can be maintained.

JRutledge Fri Sep 20, 2013 08:39am

All of that sounds great, but not once did I read or see an example that this POE applied to these plays shown in the OP.

And once again, you never have to make this call and if you did you would not be working very long. And you notice they did not go back to this POE after that year? I doubt much changed even in that year.

Peace

Adam Fri Sep 20, 2013 08:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 905577)
All of that sounds great, but not once did I read or see an example that this POE applied to these plays shown in the OP.

And once again, you never have to make this call and if you did you would not be working very long. And you notice they did not go back to this POE after that year? I doubt much changed even in that year.

Peace

They probably dropped the POE for two reasons.

1. Some refs actually started making this call, and the coaches on the rule committee didn't like it.
2. The rest of the coaches saw the POE and spent all year yelling for that call.

asdf Fri Sep 20, 2013 09:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905576)
2010 Point of Emphasis!

Pretty sure in these clips you can see
ASSISTING THE RUNNER
The NFHS Football Rules Committee develops competitive rules that promote fair play
and attempt to minimize risks to student-athletes. Fundamental to this process is the constant evaluation of the rules and how they impact the balance between offense and defense.
NFHS Rule 9-1 states: “An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist
his forward progress.” These acts, whether intentional or not, create an inequity between
the offensive and defensive teams and must be penalized without regard to down or field
position.
Pushing the pile forward has become more prominent at the high school level. This act
alone does not necessarily constitute a violation of Rule 9-1 unless an offensive player is in
direct contact with the runner and deliberately attempting to move him forward
. Pulling or
lifting a runner
to assist his forward progress has no place in high school football. The sole
reason these acts occur is to give the offensive team an advantage.
Football officials are
expected to penalize such actions so the balance can be maintained.

Highlighted the pertinent interpretation in red...



"Pushing the pile is not a foul"

The fact that you as a coach won't admit the fact that Ohio has (and has for a long, long time) interpreted it this way is disheartening on your part.

Suudy Fri Sep 20, 2013 09:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 905572)
I STILL think that at the time, the Bush Push should have been called. Not many (other than ND fans) agree with me.

I agree it should have been called, and I'm a Pac-12 guy (and _not_ a UCLA fan :) ).

bigjohn Fri Sep 20, 2013 09:41am

Amanda Clearcreek and Ron Hinton would not agree with you at all.

JRutledge Fri Sep 20, 2013 09:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 905578)
They probably dropped the POE for two reasons.

1. Some refs actually started making this call, and the coaches on the rule committee didn't like it.
2. The rest of the coaches saw the POE and spent all year yelling for that call.

I think one of the big myths about POEs is that everyone is having the same problems. I am sure somewhere, someone had an issue an it was a POE. That does not mean the rest of us had the same issues or wanted this or any other POE to be called more.

If the NF wanted to outlaw this kind of play, they would have made sure it was in all their literature. And the fact that there is basically a disclaimer about pushing the pile tells me even more their intent was never to outlaw what we see on the first two videos. The last video, there is a reasonable debate to be had.

Peace

asdf Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905587)
Amanda Clearcreek and Ron Hinton would not agree with you at all.

What's that got to do with what the interpretation is? There's plenty of rules we don't agree with. Doesn't change the rule.

If he's a head coach, he should know (just like your head coach) since this matter is brought up annually.

MD Longhorn Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905587)
Amanda Clearcreek and Ron Hinton would not agree with you at all.

I'm sure Clearcreek's opponent and their coach would agree with us just fine. One school and one coach does not, an organization, make.

I suspect there are coaches and schools right now whose opponents benefitted from a particular rule, and whom do not agree with the rule right now. Doesn't make them right, and doesn't change the rule.

JRutledge Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905587)
Amanda Clearcreek and Ron Hinton would not agree with you at all.

OK, who are they? And why do I care what they have to say?

Do they give my crew games? NO.

Do we get playoffs based off of their recommendation? Hell NO!

I put this on the equivalence of what the ACC Supervisor said about an issue in the off season and then the Supervisor of NCAA Officials not only disagreed, but gave evidence of why it was not what the ACC Supervisor claimed was illegal (without using his name).

I do not have to answer to either of these two. And if I called what was suggested in the video, I would not be working very much, if at all.

Peace

Robert Goodman Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:02am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 905538)
NCAA rule changed last year removing a push as an act that constitutes assisting the runner. If this happened this year there is no question it is NOT a foul.

"Last year" would be 2012, and I assure you the word "push" still appears in the 2012 NCAA 9-3-2(b). Did you mean 2013?

HLin NC Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:05am

Quote:

Amanda Clearcreek and Ron Hinton would not agree with you at all.
"Nevah heard of 'em"- props to the QCB on WFNZ

bigjohn Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:28pm

It is an Ohio thing, Ron is a big Boy and he threw a fit when HTR was called on his team in the state finals, over ten years ago.

It is hilarious if you saw it! He made a spectecal of himself and got a 2 or 3 game suspension!

:)


Each of the clips show this!
offensive player is in
direct contact with the runner and deliberately attempting to move him forward

CT1 Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:43pm

From the replies thus far, I don't think you'll have to worry about having this called for or against you, John.

Well, maybe against.

asdf Fri Sep 20, 2013 02:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905602)


Each of the clips show this!
offensive player is in
direct contact with the runner and deliberately attempting to move him forward

And according to interpretation in Ohio, if the runner is part of a pile it's legal.

Do you deny that the powers that be in Ohio have said that pushing the pile is legal?

MD Longhorn Fri Sep 20, 2013 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdf (Post 905605)
And according to interpretation in Ohio, if the runner is part of a pile it's legal.

Do you deny that the powers that be in Ohio have said that pushing the pile is legal?

John has no idea. He's read no interpretations (and when we post them here he argues with them). He's attended no clinics, sat in no rooms after games with other officials, driven home discussing plays with no officials, etc.

He has a rulebook, and thinks that's enough.

JRutledge Fri Sep 20, 2013 02:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn (Post 905607)
John has no idea. He's read no interpretations (and when we post them here he argues with them). He's attended no clinics, sat in no rooms after games with other officials, driven home discussing plays with no officials, etc.

He has a rulebook, and thinks that's enough.

That is why I love guys that coach that come to officiating and they realize how hard it is to do what we do. Or they realize how ignorant they were about things that took place from our side of the field. And I respect the time coaches put into the game to become better, but they have no idea the hours we put in to learn the game and the rules.

Peace

Suudy Sat Sep 21, 2013 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 905608)
That is why I love guys that coach that come to officiating and they realize how hard it is to do what we do. Or they realize how ignorant they were about things that took place from our side of the field. And I respect the time coaches put into the game to become better, but they have no idea the hours we put in to learn the game and the rules.

Peace

We've often stated in our association that at least the HC should officiate 1 year. Then they might have the experience and perspective to quash the stupid thinking we often see.

bigjohn Sat Sep 21, 2013 02:33pm

You guys have no idea what I have done or seen!

asdf Sun Sep 22, 2013 09:08am

I do know that you have yet to answer (or even attempt to) my question.

chapmaja Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:19am

[QUOTE=paxsonref;905492]Take a look at these two videos...do you have anything here?

I am not a football official (except flag football), but I also have nothing on this. I agree with those saying they are pushing the pile, which in my opinion, constitutes attempting to block players that are attempting to tackle the ball carrier.

I have seen aiding the runner called once in my lifetime. Homecoming at my HS and the opponent handed the ball off and as the play came down field, the RB cut back so a OL was right behind him. The OL just flat out 2 hand shoved him in the middle of the back for about 4 yards as a helpless (that was my HS's entire team for most of the last decade) defender tried making a tackle. The funny thing was nobody on the crew knew the signal, they just knew it happened.

bigjohn Sun Sep 22, 2013 02:05pm

Scout.com: 2003 DIVISION V STATE CHAMPIONSHIP

I am not sure where the new ohio director stands on this issue.

asdf Sun Sep 22, 2013 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905709)

I am not sure where the new ohio director stands on this issue.

you've been told plenty of times...

bigjohn Sun Sep 22, 2013 08:44pm

Same guy that says it is fine to wear shorts on Friday night?

asdf Sun Sep 22, 2013 09:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905734)
Same guy that says it is fine to wear shorts on Friday night?

Yep, along with the current and former State Rules Interpreters.

bigjohn Mon Sep 23, 2013 05:51am

If it is not a safety issue for the fb to run and drill his own QB in the back to try and push the entire pile into the end zone or for a first down, I don't know what is.

It is silly to say it is not HTR runner when this happens.

asdf Mon Sep 23, 2013 06:00am

Whether or not you agree with the rule isn't and hasn't been the issue. There are many that we don't agree with as well. (was a recent thread about that subject)

I don't agree with the rule allowing blocking below the waist in the FBZ (under certain conditions) However, I don't go around saying that BBW in the FBZ is illegal,

MD Longhorn Mon Sep 23, 2013 08:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905744)
If it is not a safety issue for the fb to run and drill his own QB in the back to try and push the entire pile into the end zone or for a first down, I don't know what is.

You are correct.

Welpe Mon Sep 23, 2013 09:13am

Cooler weather, changing color on leaves, football and Big John vs. everyone else arguing. These are the markers of fall.

Are we about done here or do I actually need to lock this thread, too?

HLin NC Mon Sep 23, 2013 09:20am

I vote yes
 
Quote:

are we about done here or do i actually need to lock this thread, too?
+1

Forksref Mon Sep 23, 2013 09:22am

Reggie Bush play: definitely a foul.

In HS ball, if the player is ONLY contacting the runner and pushing him it is a foul. I've called it twice from my WH position.

Can anyone tell me if it is a foul in the NFL? It looked pretty obvious last night with #33 of the Steelers pushing Rothlisburger.

APG Mon Sep 23, 2013 09:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forksref (Post 905772)
Reggie Bush play: definitely a foul.

In HS ball, if the player is ONLY contacting the runner and pushing him it is a foul. I've called it twice from my WH position.

Can anyone tell me if it is a foul in the NFL? It looked pretty obvious last night with #33 of the Steelers pushing Rothlisburger.

It's only a foul to pull a runner in any direction (which is actually a change from last year when the rule also stated it was illegal to lift the runner to his feet).

A.R. From the 2013 Rule Book

A.R. 12.2 Second and goal on B2. Runner A1 gets to the line of scrimmage and is stopped but A2, who is behind him, pushes him from behind and shoves him over the goal line.
Ruling: Touchdown


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