The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Football (https://forum.officiating.com/football/)
-   -   Thoughts on this release. (https://forum.officiating.com/football/96136-thoughts-release.html)

bigjohn Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:36am

Thoughts on this release.
 
Response to Ohio's strict new rule on concussions.

Responsibility for recognizing concussions | OHSAA Football Officials

scrounge Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:59am

No problem with it at all....yes, we don't need to be hyperactive about looking for things or doing the job of the trainers, but if we see it we can't abdicate our legal responsibility. The law includes a shield from liability, but not if we wantonly ignore our job.

Adam Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrounge (Post 905482)
No problem with it at all....yes, we don't need to be hyperactive about looking for things or doing the job of the trainers, but if we see it we can't abdicate our legal responsibility. The law includes a shield from liability, but not if we wantonly ignore our job.

This is the problem for me. Someone is bound to define "wantonly ignore our job" far more loosely, and suddenly it will be an issue if we just don't recognize the symptoms.

ajmc Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn (Post 905479)
Response to Ohio's strict new rule on concussions.

Responsibility for recognizing concussions | OHSAA Football Officials

NFHS 3-5-10 has addressed this problem for many years, and covers concussions as well as any other "apparently injured player" situation. Game officials are NOT usually trained medical personnel, but we all should be responsible adults who recognize that the safety and health of participants in games we officiate is a primary focus.

Referring the player to the sideline for appropriate professional evaluation is a prudent protocol. Normally the player being sent back in to participate, after evaluation, is determined to be fit to play, and that conclusion is made by the appropriate sideline personnel, who it is reasonable to understand is also a, "responsible adults who recognize that the safety and health of participants in games we officiate is a primary focus".

However, in rare circumstances when the field officials remain uncomfortable with the player returning because of his behavior or actions, and there is concern that the player may still be, "an apparently injured player" they should simply reapply the instructions of NFHS 3-5-10 and refer the player back to the sideline for re-evaluation.

maven Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 905486)
NFHS 3-5-10 has addressed this problem for many years, and covers concussions as well as any other "apparently injured player" situation. Game officials are NOT usually trained medical personnel, but we all should be responsible adults who recognize that the safety and health of participants in games we officiate is a primary focus.

Referring the player to the sideline for appropriate professional evaluation is a prudent protocol. Normally the player being sent back in to participate, after evaluation, is determined to be fit to play, and that conclusion is made by the appropriate sideline personnel, who it is reasonable to understand is also a, "responsible adults who recognize that the safety and health of participants in games we officiate is a primary focus".

However, in rare circumstances when the field officials remain uncomfortable with the player returning because of his behavior or actions, and there is concern that the player may still be, "an apparently injured player" they should simply reapply the instructions of NFHS 3-5-10 and refer the player back to the sideline for re-evaluation.

Your remarks don't address the concern. The new law in Ohio (which OHSAA has adopted as policy) specifies that, if an official in any sport sends a player off and uses the word 'concussion', that player is ineligible to participate further in that contest and for the remainder of that day. Period, medical examination notwithstanding.

Coaches worry that this policy bypasses their medical personnel (one area football team has the chief of the Cleveland Clinic neurosurgery unit on its sideline) and makes the officials responsible for this call.

So officials find themselves in a crossfire between the state, which wants us to err on the side of safety and send kids off, and coaches and schools, who want us to do nothing.

The press release from the state is hardly illuminating, I would say, and merely describes the crossfire without proposing any remedy for it.

bisonlj Thu Sep 19, 2013 01:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven (Post 905490)
Your remarks don't address the concern. The new law in Ohio (which OHSAA has adopted as policy) specifies that, if an official in any sport sends a player off and uses the word 'concussion', that player is ineligible to participate further in that contest and for the remainder of that day. Period, medical examination notwithstanding.

Coaches worry that this policy bypasses their medical personnel (one area football team has the chief of the Cleveland Clinic neurosurgery unit on its sideline) and makes the officials responsible for this call.

So officials find themselves in a crossfire between the state, which wants us to err on the side of safety and send kids off, and coaches and schools, who want us to do nothing.

The press release from the state is hardly illuminating, I would say, and merely describes the crossfire without proposing any remedy for it.

Indiana only requires an approved medical personnel to clear the player without a concussion on the day he's removed. If the medical professional determines there was a concussion, he definitely can't return that day. And he must have approved medical personnel clear him in the future.

The reason I don't like the Ohio law (and I believe California has a similar policy) is we don't always make the right decision. We had a player who took a good hit on a play. He appeared to be wobbly on his feet and wouldn't answer questions from the R so he was sent out with apparent concussion symptoms. Turns out his mouth piece fell out when he was hit and he was trying to find it. He was confused about why the R was asking him a question. In Ohio and California he would have been done for the day. In Indiana, an approved medical person was able to determine there was nothing wrong with him.

ajmc Thu Sep 19, 2013 05:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven (Post 905490)
Your remarks don't address the concern. The new law in Ohio (which OHSAA has adopted as policy) specifies that, if an official in any sport sends a player off and uses the word 'concussion', that player is ineligible to participate further in that contest and for the remainder of that day. Period, medical examination notwithstanding.

So officials find themselves in a crossfire between the state, which wants us to err on the side of safety and send kids off, and coaches and schools, who want us to do nothing.

The press release from the state is hardly illuminating, I would say, and merely describes the crossfire without proposing any remedy for it.

Apologies, Maven, perhaps I was being too subtle. Personally, I would never diagnose an injury, mainly because I don't have to. "Apparently injured" seems to cover everything.

I anticipate normally being very comfortable relying on the assessment of a medical professional and would bow to his/her assessment. In circumstances where I did not agree with an assessment that a player is fit to re-enter a game, I would exercise my responsibility under NFHS 3-5-10 and send him back out for additional assessment. If my doubts persisted, I would repeat the process until either my concerns were relieved, or they stopped sending the player back in.

I suspect such a chain of events would be exceptionally rare, and would require some extremely blatant and obvious difference of perceptions. The bottom line is if the Referee does not believe the player is fit to play, he doesn't play. That includes being willing to likely have to defend your assessment at some subsequent point.

Eastshire Fri Sep 20, 2013 07:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 905547)
Apologies, Maven, perhaps I was being too subtle. Personally, I would never diagnose an injury, mainly because I don't have to. "Apparently injured" seems to cover everything.

I anticipate normally being very comfortable relying on the assessment of a medical professional and would bow to his/her assessment. In circumstances where I did not agree with an assessment that a player is fit to re-enter a game, I would exercise my responsibility under NFHS 3-5-10 and send him back out for additional assessment. If my doubts persisted, I would repeat the process until either my concerns were relieved, or they stopped sending the player back in.

I suspect such a chain of events would be exceptionally rare, and would require some extremely blatant and obvious difference of perceptions. The bottom line is if the Referee does not believe the player is fit to play, he doesn't play. That includes being willing to likely have to defend your assessment at some subsequent point.

You seem to be missing that in Ohio, the referees have a legal obligation regarding apparent concussions. We don't diagnosis in the technical sense of the word, but we basically required to do so by law in practical terms and that assessment is legally superior to an actual diagnosis by a medical professional. Once the referees has identified an apparent sign of a concussion, it is illegal, not against the rules but actually against the law, for the player to return that day at all and he may not return after that day without being cleared by a doctor.

I understand the impulse for coaches to say, "We have actual medical professionals. Please don't look at my injured players." However, a referee in Ohio turning a blind eye to apparent symptoms of a concussion is going to land in real legal trouble given the new law.

Adam Fri Sep 20, 2013 07:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 905569)
You seem to be missing that in Ohio, the referees have a legal obligation regarding apparent concussions. We don't diagnosis in the technical sense of the word, but we basically required to do so by law in practical terms and that assessment is legally superior to an actual diagnosis by a medical professional. Once the referees has identified an apparent sign of a concussion, it is illegal, not against the rules but actually against the law, for the player to return that day at all and he may not return after that day without being cleared by a doctor.

I understand the impulse for coaches to say, "We have actual medical professionals. Please don't look at my injured players." However, a referee in Ohio turning a blind eye to apparent symptoms of a concussion is going to land in real legal trouble given the new law.

On top of this, my concern has more to do with a situation where we just don't recognize any signs, and the player ends up in a bad state because he got hit after a concussion occurred. I know the law offers immunity if you're doing your job, but I don't think that'll be enough: at some point.

maven Fri Sep 20, 2013 09:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 905573)
On top of this, my concern has more to do with a situation where we just don't recognize any signs, and the player ends up in a bad state because he got hit after a concussion occurred. I know the law offers immunity if you're doing your job, but I don't think that'll be enough: at some point.

That is a legitimate concern. OHSAA requires officials in all sports to take the NFHS concussion training course as a condition of renewing their permits this summer. An official who now fails to recognize symptoms of a concussion could be held negligent for doing so.

KWH Sat Sep 21, 2013 05:43pm

Do the job you were hired to do...nothing more, nothing less!
 
If OHIO did not want officials to make concussion determinations as per the NFHS Rules Book, I would think they would have written the new law to indicate such direction. Since they did not write the law that way, officials shall follow the written directions within the Rules Book. Otherwise, officials would not be performing the job they are hired to do.

That fact that some people have their panties in a Wadd because they feel "This law gives game officials some type of superpower" need contact there state legislature and get the law changed or they could go howl at the moon, or they could go pound sand.
It really doesn't matter what they do because the people doing the whining have no authority to do anything but whine...

Restated:
Attention All Whiners - Until the law is changed, Sit Down and Shut up!

Adam Sat Sep 21, 2013 07:08pm

So in your mind, we can't express our frustrations?

HLin NC Sat Sep 21, 2013 08:28pm

Simple, don't say the word "concussion" when you send him off, say "Have him checked out"

maven Sat Sep 21, 2013 09:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 905676)
Simple, don't say the word "concussion" when you send him off, say "Have him checked out"

:)

Altor Mon Sep 23, 2013 07:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 905676)
Simple, don't say the word "concussion" when you send him off, say "Have him checked out"

And when the coach sends him back in and he gets seriously injured, you just became a defendant in a law suit that everybody will likely lose. But, at least you have insurance, right?

Eastshire Mon Sep 23, 2013 08:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWH (Post 905669)
If OHIO did not want officials to make concussion determinations as per the NFHS Rules Book, I would think they would have written the new law to indicate such direction. Since they did not write the law that way, officials shall follow the written directions within the Rules Book. Otherwise, officials would not be performing the job they are hired to do.

That fact that some people have their panties in a Wadd because they feel "This law gives game officials some type of superpower" need contact there state legislature and get the law changed or they could go howl at the moon, or they could go pound sand.
It really doesn't matter what they do because the people doing the whining have no authority to do anything but whine...

Restated:
Attention All Whiners - Until the law is changed, Sit Down and Shut up!

What an odd post. I'm not familiar with the specifics of the football concussion rule, but assuming it's nearly identical to the soccer one, it's my opinion that the Ohio law requires, at minimum, that the referees comply with the concussion rule. Failure to do so may in fact cause you to lose your liability shield.

The dumb part of the law is making my few second determination of a possible concussion more important than a considered evaluation by a medical professional.

HLin NC Mon Sep 23, 2013 09:12am

Yes, actually I do (roughly $1 mil last count) and in NC they can not return until an "approved medical provider" by the school system authorizes their return so my *** and the coach's is covered.

scrounge Mon Sep 23, 2013 09:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 905762)
What an odd post. I'm not familiar with the specifics of the football concussion rule, but assuming it's nearly identical to the soccer one, it's my opinion that the Ohio law requires, at minimum, that the referees comply with the concussion rule. Failure to do so may in fact cause you to lose your liability shield.

The dumb part of the law is making my few second determination of a possible concussion more important than a considered evaluation by a medical professional.

I don't think the law does that in any way whatsoever...quite the contrary, it requires us to be vigilant and, if we see signs or symptoms, to make sure the young man/woman gets to that medical professional for a full, medical evaluation. No one is asking or implying that officials make a diagnosis. And the law offers a pretty strong liability shield - it's not just a reasonable effort standard, it's protection except for wanton or willful violation of the law, a pretty high standard.

The only thing I would change about the law is to allow same-day return if written clearance is obtained by a physician (not just a trainer but an actual MD). I just don't think we're talking about very many cases where that would apply, though.

Altor Mon Sep 23, 2013 09:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 905762)
The dumb part of the law is making my few second determination of a possible concussion more important than a considered evaluation by a medical professional.

Many time, legislatures are knee-jerk reactors, and don't think about the consequences of their laws. They take a good idea and go way to far with it.

There are a couple of good ideas in this law:
1) Everybody on the field is responsible for the safety of our young athletes.
2) Every adult on the field should be able to recognize concussion symptoms.
3) When in doubt, remove the athlete from competition.

I can't disagree with these. Coaches and officials should be able to identify symptoms and remove the athlete.

The problem comes with the General Assembly's next idea that once there is doubt, NOBODY can legally remove that doubt for the remainder of the day.
Couple this with the NFHS and CDC web courses (required by the same law) that tell us that any symptom like "shaking it off" after laying out for a ground ball at short stop should be taken seriously and is appropriate for removal from the contest and you have a bad law.

No doctor can tell the official and coach that it wasn't a concussion and he should be allowed to play. He had dust in his eyes from reaching for the ground ball. Or he was looking for his mouth-guard and that's why he appeared to be off-balance and didn't respond to your questions. Or he was dizzy because he has a cold and blew his nose too hard. Nope, the initial layman's "diagnosis" from 5 seconds of observation trumps any medically-trained person, including a doctor with years of experience with head trauma and the appropriate amount of time to observe the athlete.

That's what makes it a bad law.

Altor Mon Sep 23, 2013 09:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by scrounge (Post 905774)
No one is asking or implying that officials make a diagnosis.

No, that's the problem. Coaches and officials are told that any suspicion requires removal from the contest AND a even a full diagnosis by a doctor cannot legally remove this suspicion.

JRutledge Mon Sep 23, 2013 09:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Altor (Post 905778)
That's what makes it a bad law.

It certainly sounds like it. We have to take players out here if we see signs of a concussion, but the schools by law have to have certain people to approve those players for reentry. We just have to be told they did and then report that information to our state to tell them that is what happened.

Also signs of concussions are also signs of other conditions. I just think we should not over react to these things without someone that actually has a baseline for the kid's behavior or medical situation for us to make a decision that no one can evaluate. Very silly and might cause lawsuits the other way.

Peace

Eastshire Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 905780)
It certainly sounds like it. We have to take players out here if we see signs of a concussion, but the schools by law have to have certain people to approve those players for reentry. We just have to be told they did and then report that information to our state to tell them that is what happened.

Also signs of concussions are also signs of other conditions. I just think we should not over react to these things without someone that actually has a baseline for the kid's behavior or medical situation for us to make a decision that no one can evaluate. Very silly and might cause lawsuits the other way.

Peace

Sounds like Illinois's law is much better than Ohio. Good job Illinois.

Suudy Mon Sep 23, 2013 01:07pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 905780)
It certainly sounds like it. We have to take players out here if we see signs of a concussion, but the schools by law have to have certain people to approve those players for reentry. We just have to be told they did and then report that information to our state to tell them that is what happened.

We have the same here in WA, though we aren't required to report it to the state. Our association, though, has a policy to record the time and number of the kid sent out for concussions symptoms, and we email that to our assignor to handle. I don't think it is reported to the state, but we do log it in case of issues.

asdf Mon Sep 23, 2013 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 905780)
It certainly sounds like it. We have to take players out here if we see signs of a concussion, but the schools by law have to have certain people to approve those players for reentry. We just have to be told they did and then report that information to our state to tell them that is what happened.

Also signs of concussions are also signs of other conditions. I just think we should not over react to these things without someone that actually has a baseline for the kid's behavior or medical situation for us to make a decision that no one can evaluate. Very silly and might cause lawsuits the other way.

Peace

That was the regulation (not law) in Ohio before some idiot in the Ohio Legislature decided to intervene.

Now, Ohio officials have this mess on their hands.

JRutledge Mon Sep 23, 2013 01:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 905801)
Sounds like Illinois's law is much better than Ohio. Good job Illinois.

Not many Illinois laws are good. At least they got something right. ;)

Peace

ajmc Mon Sep 23, 2013 01:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 905569)
You seem to be missing that in Ohio, the referees have a legal obligation regarding apparent concussions. We don't diagnosis in the technical sense of the word, but we basically required to do so by law in practical terms and that assessment is legally superior to an actual diagnosis by a medical professional.

a referee in Ohio turning a blind eye to apparent symptoms of a concussion is going to land in real legal trouble given the new law.

I have no idea what you are trying to suggest by, "the referees have a legal obligation regarding apparent concussions. We don't diagnosis in the technical sense of the word, but we basically required to do so by law in practical terms and that assessment is legally superior to an actual diagnosis by a medical professional.".

I would also suggest that ANY Referee ANYWHERE accepts the same risk, "a referee in Ohio turning a blind eye to apparent symptoms of a concussion is going to land in real legal trouble given the new law".

Adam Mon Sep 23, 2013 03:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc (Post 905808)
I have no idea what you are trying to suggest by, "the referees have a legal obligation regarding apparent concussions. We don't diagnosis in the technical sense of the word, but we basically required to do so by law in practical terms and that assessment is legally superior to an actual diagnosis by a medical professional.".

I would also suggest that ANY Referee ANYWHERE accepts the same risk, "a referee in Ohio turning a blind eye to apparent symptoms of a concussion is going to land in real legal trouble given the new law".

I agree, but the apparent added burden of the force of law is the issue. In Ohio, the problem is the finality of a decision made by people with no medical training and zero information on patient history. That finality is going to lead to some hesitation.

Let us send the kids off with the possibility of someone with an actual medical degree determining we were being just a bit jumpy. I'd rather be able to err on the side of caution.

bigjohn Tue Sep 24, 2013 06:28am

http://ohsaa.org/officials/bulletins...etin2013-1.pdf



3. Concussion: When a player has signs or symptoms of a concussion he is suspended
from the game and may not reenter the game. This is based upon Ohio House Bill 143.
If an Ohio Team plays a game in another state,this Rule applies. If an out of state team
plays a game in Ohio,this Rule applies. This is because it is a state law now.

5. Officials Uniform: It is a Crew Decision whether to wear shorts or pants during a varsity
game this year. Itis not a decision that can be made by a League Assigner or
Commissioner. Why were shorts added for varsity games for the first time this year?
Statistics indicate it is hotter;more teams play on synthetic turf fields which are hotter;
and more teams now employ a “hurry up” offense and/or a spread offense.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:54pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1