Wow! KCI
 

Ok....Friday night

K punts from their 30...R gives an invalid fair catch signal at R's 40...K interferes with the punt which was then muffed and recovered by R at the 50

We really screwed it up but... should we have given offsetting fouls due to each team committing live ball fouls or...

Option 1) Marched off 5 for the invalid signal - 15 for the KCI - award R a fair catch at the 50
Option 2) Award R the result of the play at the 50
Option 3) Offsetting - replay 4th down

It is an offset if they both take accept the penalties. Not sure why you would give the option, but it could be a strategy situation if time or field position is a factor.

Peace

R can decline K's KCI foul & keep the ball after enforcement of the invalid signal penalty, or can accept K's foul for a replay of the down.

If R declines the KCI foul, it's K's ball. I don't think they will be doing that.

Not sure why it would be K's ball if R recovered.

R's recovery at the 50 is the end of the kick. R's foul is PSK so they have the option of declining K's foul and taking the ball at their own 45 (after enforcement of 5 yard penalty from the end of the kick) or accepting K's foul and replaying down.

Why?

Why would you not give R an option?

You apparently overlooked the fact that R recovered the ball.......

My bad... I misread this as K recovering after the KCI.

You have a classic double foul. Usually you do not ask both teams their options in that situation.

Peace

Why not, when the choice is not obvious? And it doesn't look obvious in this situation.

You must did not see the "usually" in my post. And I can tell you most would not ask and replay the down.

Peace

In this instance R's choices:

Decline the KCI to keep the ball. Enforce R's invalid signal from the spot of the foul (behind basic spot). R's ball 1/10 at the R35
Accept the KCI resulting in a double foul. Replay the down from the K30.

Neither option is obvious so in this case I definitely think we should ask. Do you see the options differently or do you think 99% of R coaches will want a re-kick?

I think it really depends on the down and distance and the part of the game. It is not like having the ball is a big advantage at the 35 unless time is of the essence.

I think most Referees that I know (including me) would just make this a double foul and play this over. Yes R gets the ball, but they are not in great field position where it is really much of a consideration IMO. If they were on the other 35, then I could see a different choice or possibility.

Peace

By giving the team the option to retain the ball, it actually presents them with the logical choice based on the circumstances surrounding the play.

Example...... (not related to the original play, which would be R's ball at the 35 or replay the down)

"Coach, if you decline the penalty on K, you will have the ball at your own 15 yard line after we enforce the penalty against you....." (starting deep in his own territory will probably persuade him to replay the down)

"Coach, if you decline the penalty on K, you will have the ball at the 50 yard line after we enforce the penalty against you...." (having the ball at the 50 will probably persuade him to decline K's penalty and start a drive at mid-field)

I don't want to be around when we don't offer an option, the replayed down ends up in a muffed kick and a recovery by K, and the coach finds out that we didn't give him the option to refuse K's foul.

But you act like them getting the ball is some great accomplishment. It was a punt, not a play where they got the ball with "clean hands." They are going to get another chance to get the ball back. And being closer then their own 35 is a real possibility in HS football in this situation if I am imagining where the ball would likely be kicked from.

Peace

Then most Referees that you know (including you) are going against the rules, and asking for trouble that can be easily avoided.

Most Referees that I know (including me) give options unless the choice is blatantly obvious.

Not me. When it comes to replaying a punt down, I'm definitely giving the coach the option of taking the ball, regardless of field location. I am going straight to the coach to give the options, though.

What rule does is say we must ask no matter what? And do you ask every time we have a false start or other dead ball fouls? I know many that think crews are crazy to even ask in those situations. Now maybe there is a standard you want to use and I am fine with that, but not much to ask here IMO and not something I really care if you ask or not ask. Actually I think some are making a bigger deal out of the options.

Also saying something is "blatantly obvious" is very subjective, it always will be by definition. And getting the ball at the 35 on your side of the field is not something I see many coaches wanting to do. And when I see a coach get upset over this, it will be a first.

If we are going to replay 4th and 1 or 4 and 5 I have no problem with asking R. But if we are replaying 4th and 20 or 4th and 25, different story.

Peace

Blatantly Obvious.....

Tie game 15 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter.
A's ball 4th and goal form B's 20 yard line.

While the ball is in the air on a forward pass, A81 commits offensive pass interference by pushing B34 to the ground in the end zone. After the push, A81 leaps to catch the ball, however, A81 does not maintain possession and drops the ball for an incomplete pass. The BJ, who threw the flag for the OPI informs the R of the foul and the result of the play which was an incomplete pass.

10-1-1.

Not if there's no option.

Then you should ask on EVERY foul where there's an option, shouldn't you?

Just admit you misspoke & let's move on.

I agree with asdf. I would also add that the assumption by Jeff that most would take the replay without much thought is likely faulty. I'd assume the opposite in fact. Unless declining the foul and keeping the ball puts the team in a disadvantageous situation (like the aforementioned "own 14"), MOST coaches are going to take the ball without a rekick. MOST coaches see the punt return as a risky play already - risky enough that they're going to keep the ball without a rekick most of the time. (Consider before numerous enforcement changes about 8 years back, how often coaches declined penalties against teams that were kicking off, solely because they'd just rather have the ball and be done with the return play rather than rekicking 5 yards back).

I agree that if an official were to simply set up to rekick - a lot of coaches will not know they had an option and think nothing of it. But I disagree that given that option it's a no-brainer that they would take the rekick.

Not to put words in his mouth, but I think Jeff agrees with that.

Where the two of you differ (and where I differ from Jeff) is whether THIS scenario is blatantly obvious.

Absolutely...

We don't know if R is having issues with returns, (blocking, catching, fumbling, penalties, injury to players...etc) therefore we actually may be putting them at a greater disadvantage than accepting the ball at their own x-yard line...

Not our job in this situation.

I do.

And I think this is a typical internet officiating conversation. I have never had this much debate on my crew or with other officials in person. It is a double foul, not rocket science. And it is not blatant unless I know the down and distance and game situation.

Peace

You would likely know that if you know something about the teams or if there are other situations in the game. And we also do not know if the punter is having good day that would also factor. Honestly I would consider many more things then just if they got the ball back anyway.

Peace

I get it....

You are right.... I am wrong.......


Time to move on.......

Interesting. I think what I do works for me. If you have to do something else as if your life depends on it, do that. Again, I do not have to work with you so it really makes no difference who is right or wrong. ;)

Peace

The coach best knows if his punt return team is worth a damn or not. Maybe they aren't or the kick returner has hands made of butter and that having the ball period is a good option for them.

The fouls don't offset automatically and the decision is not obvious so I'm giving them an option in this case.

There you go, all wrapped up in your own little universe. Maybe it doesn't make any difference in your game on that night.

But what about the crew that has that team next week? Or the week after? What are they to say when the coach says "The crew we had last week did it differently?"

That's why it makes a difference.

I agree with this. There are pluses and minuses to either option so we need to present them to the team. There are times the options are obvious (i.e. false start, encroachment, hold by A on a TD run). There are times when it may be obvious but you still want to check. I see this as one of them.

I had a similar situation in a late round playoff game. K is ahead by 7 with 40 seconds left. 4th and 16 from the K44. K gets the punt off and it goes out of bounds around the R35. I have a hold on the LG (obvious take down at the LOS). I report it to the R but tell him I assume R will decline it because R will likely want the ball with no more time taken off the clock (they are out of timeouts). I pick up my flag and head downfield to get the ball ready for the next series. My R yells at me that R wants the penalty. I go to get a ball from the K sideline and they don't understand why R wants the penalty. I enforce the penalty at the K40 back to the K30. I realize that since crazy things can happen on punts it may not be a bad idea to accept the penalty. Guess what...K's next kick goes out of bounds at the K28! Smart move by the R coach. They gained over 30 yards on the play. They tied the game and won in OT. Situations we think are obvious aren't always obvious. Ask as clearly as possible.

I do not ask on fouls where there is an option and the option is obvious.

PLAY:A 1/10, A20. Run by A goes to the A33 yard line. Holding foul by A66 at the A22. You actually get a captain and present the options on that?

I do not think there is a right or wrong here. I think is you do what works for you and your crew and the people in your area. If you have to ask someone about this situation, then do just that. Why would I care when you are not only in a different state, but a different region of the country? Are my teams going to play you anytime soon? We are not talking about college football where teams play in different state on a regular even at the small college level. And even at that level I do not know many Referees that ask in this very situation and they are much more dismissive about the decision then I am.

Yes, I live in a universe that most here never would be around even to have this debate. You do not live here. You likely have not done much that I have done here. You probably do not work college ball on my crew or are on the supplemental list that I am on in another level. We have guys here that brag about not giving a measurement during a game, you think they really are going out of their way to debate if they are going to have a double foul in a situation we are discussing? And I am not the Referee on a regular basis, so I do not have to worry about it either way. I just think this is an easy replay with the information we were given and if you feel it has to be an issue, then make it one and ask the coach or the captain as many times as you like.

Let it go already. I do not have to be you to feel good about myself. :)

Peace

I actually know officials that feel you should. So I would not be surprised if he is in that camp. And you know what, if that works for him I would not have a problem with it, even if I was working with him. Again, not a big deal if you ask me. If that makes him sleep at night, then so be it.

Peace

You know, I'm all for not asking captains (at all, I usually ask the coaches from a distance if I can), but the difference between keeping the ball as B and making A punt again is far from obvious. Making this a double foul is far from obvious. Even if they get the ball at the 15 or 20, I'm asking the question. Many teams aren't fond of their punt return teams, etc. and would simply prefer taking the ball.

Also, I'd want the coach to know he had the option of keeping the ball and not give A another 4th down play. If I don't do that, I think I'm being negligent in my duties.

I'd ask in a college game, too.

I think it hurts the crew, myself. Giving an option on something like that, IMO, shows that the referee (and by extension the crew) has no common sense and/or feel for the game.

Far different than the play in the OP. I'm just trying to figure out where the line is with him, is all. I know where yours is -- I disagree with it, but so what? :D

+100000000000

Peace

You know Rich, if I was on your crew in that situation, I would be OK with you asking. I honestly do not care either way.

Also this is a situation that if done right you would hardly have to ask. The wing or other officials should already get to the coach and tell them they can replay the down or they can take the ball with a penalty assessed. That should take 5 seconds to get that information and we would be moving at a quick pace. And I cannot think of many situations where the team would not just make it a double foul as they want to take their chances to get a better result then being on their side of the field at their 35 yard line. This to me is like asking when the FG angle might change after a false start or encroachment, there are times they can decline the yardage but we rarely ask. I am OK with what the crew is comfortable with. Just because I might have a personal view, that view does not override my crew.

Peace

No, and you quoted out of context.

Rut's contention was: "Also saying something is 'blatantly obvious' is very subjective, it always will be by definition."

If it is indeed "very subjective" (which I disagree with), then you should present options on every choice, which I also disagree with.

Simple -- I don't ask on obvious choices. If there's any question, as in the OP, I ask.

Well considering that you and I do not agree on this situation and your quote of the rule caused an issue with someone else, these things are clearly are not seen in the same light. So I stand by my contention that this is very subjective and changes based on who is involved or is looking at the circumstances. If it was objective, then there would not be at all a debate.

Peace

The mere fact that there are plays (including this one) where one quality official finds it obvious, and another quality official doesn't, makes this, by definition, VERY SUBJECTIVE.

So by "that situation" you meant double fouls in general, not this situation?

I will say it this way. Last night at one of my associations met, the topic was Penalty Enforcement. This association is geared towards HS and college officials and many of the presenters or people in the room work D1 football and many crew chiefs.

When the issue of double fouls came up, no one gave any caveats to how or when, they said in both the HS and college presentations, "We do not need to talk to anyone." Now this specific situation was not mentioned, but this situation is not a "clean hands" situation and that is the prevailing attitude here. If that is not what guys where you are do it, once again I am fine with that. But where I live, most are not making a big stink over asking coaches in these kinds of situation. I have been in this area and apart of this particular association (I belong to others as well) for over 10 years and listened to guys who I see on TV both in college and the NFL speak on what they do and never have I heard anyone make a caveat for a punt where R might decline the penalty just because they get the ball. If it is a double foul by rule, we replay the down. And that is why I said what the down and distance might be could factor in, because replaying the down might realistically give K the opportunity to run a play from scrimmage and get a first down. Never heard anyone suggest, "Well I do not know what the coach thinks about his returner" as a factor to replaying the down. Then again I am not a Referee on a regular basis anymore but when I was no one said "boo" when we would replay the down in a similar situation. I think we as officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to complain about in the first place. If they want to keep the ball, they better make more noise that is a possibility.

Peace

Jeff ... I get your point on most double fouls. And your other point on clean-hands situations.

But I would ask on any double foul on a play involving COP like punt or kickoff returns where the result of the double foul is a rekick.

I think we all get each other's points. I just do not think that much changes because it is a punt. And even when the issue where you get the ball at the 35 on your side of the ball, I am certainly not having much discussion there for sure in that situation.

It is OK to disagree sometimes. ;)

Peace

In general, that is going to be true.

• With fouls by both teams where the team last in possession fouled before gaining possession, there are no options at all. The fouls automatically offset and the down is replayed.
  
• If Team B got the ball with clean hands, they are going to want it so them declining Team A's foul is obvious. No need to ask here.

This specific situation is where clean hands is disregarded due to B's foul being PSK. It's a fairly specific situation and the only one involving fouls by both teams where I can think we should ask. It's rare and doesn't happen often. I don't think a choice is obvious here. Team B may want to replay the down and see if their return is better. Team B may be happy to have the ball back and not care about the penalty being enforced against them.

Good point and it may be reason enough that Team B decides they'll take the play and the ball.

I certainly agree coaches need to know the rules but I also think we should present options when appropriate. This is one of those regional things, here we have to care quite a bit about what the coaches complain about. If they have the perception that we aren't doing a good job, we are going to lose games as a crew.

Obviously not as big of an issue in your area. Here the coach's opinion is king.

Once again, I did not say we say nothing or we completely ignore coaches. I even said earlier that if the crew is doing their job properly we are telling the coach what happened on the play. I do not know many coaches that want to take a significant penalty and keep the ball without replaying the down.

And thank God I do not live in that system. We have coach's ratings now (they took away official's ratings this year) and I never worry about what coaches do ultimately. And I have yet to see a coach get upset when we replay the down because of a double foul. The only time coaches get upset is when they think they will not get penalized and we do.

Peace

Relatedly watching Oregon State-Utah tonight, on a kickoff:
K block in the back at the 37.
R block in the back at the 10.

They showed the official giving the R coach his choices. (It was the wing on his side). The look on his face suggested that he was not at all impressed with a crew that couldn't figure out he'd rather have a rekick than take the ball at the 5.