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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 09:40am
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In 4-man, I still go passer side. We still have wings on both sides of the field. I don't work 3-man.

For punts in 4-man, however, I go to the vacated LJ's side regardless of kicking leg. That's the book mechanic and we *do* need someone covering that sideline short, and I figure that's me.

4-man on try downs and FG's -- I call the uprights as the R and the LJ calls the crossbar from the corner. The HL watches for roughing on the kicker/holder.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 10:19am
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I have worked 2 State Finals in the State of Illinois in football. I have had two different Referees that are IHSA Clinicians now and then. Both Referees always, ALWAYS went to the thrower's arm side of the players. The first State Final, that Referee is now an assignor and name is on the IHSA Mechanics PowerPoint with the Head Clinician. And that Referee (in our first state final as a crew) runs one of the best football camps in the state for HS during the summer and was the producer of the "2013 Crew of 5 Training" DVD with Bill LeMonnier, they only teach to be on the arm of the QB. I cannot even believe this is a debate on any level from any clinician in our state. If that QB is hit, you have no perspective on the motion of the arm. Also going to the sideline is one of the most overrated things when you have a BJ that is supposed to get to the sideline in most situations and even Umpires come over as support as well. I just do not get the thinking that you need to stay wide.

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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 10:59am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I have worked 2 State Finals in the State of Illinois in football. I have had two different Referees that are IHSA Clinicians now and then. Both Referees always, ALWAYS went to the thrower's arm side of the players. The first State Final, that Referee is now an assignor and name is on the IHSA Mechanics PowerPoint with the Head Clinician. And that Referee (in our first state final as a crew) runs one of the best football camps in the state for HS during the summer and was the producer of the "2013 Crew of 5 Training" DVD with Bill LeMonnier, they only teach to be on the arm of the QB. I cannot even believe this is a debate on any level from any clinician in our state. If that QB is hit, you have no perspective on the motion of the arm. Also going to the sideline is one of the most overrated things when you have a BJ that is supposed to get to the sideline in most situations and even Umpires come over as support as well. I just do not get the thinking that you need to stay wide.

Peace
I'm with you. I help with cleanup if the play's to my side. If it's to the far side, the BJ gets in there. We've talked about this as a crew. I do not want to sacrifice the passer's arm side for anything, regardless of the number of officials.

I don't understand the comment above about the RB going OOB. I mean, we have wing officials, after all.
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Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 11:10am
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
I'm with you. I help with cleanup if the play's to my side. If it's to the far side, the BJ gets in there. We've talked about this as a crew. I do not want to sacrifice the passer's arm side for anything, regardless of the number of officials.

I don't understand the comment above about the RB going OOB. I mean, we have wing officials, after all.
And as a BJ, I get to the sideline regardless of where the Referee is located. That is what we are supposed to do no matter who goes over there. Players are in enemy territory, we get them out of there. And my Referee gets over there too. I think we put too much restrictions on what we are supposed to do as officials. The only major difference I see with 5 person is the fact we do not have 2 deep wings and we have to compensate for DWs not being there. Otherwise we move in 5.

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Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 11:12am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I just do not get the thinking that you need to stay wide. Peace
There is abundant, solid, well researched advise built into the recommended mechanic of favoring the passing arm of the passer, that should be seriously considered when determining the chosen positioning of the Referee.

However, the specific game you are working, play callin preferences related to how this specific game is unfolding, for each team, the Referee's personal capabilities (or rstrictions thereof), the specific capabilities and experience of crew mates, you are actually working with at that game and any number of other factors unique to the game you are working, may influence the positioning decision.

Any and all factors, certainly including all those built into the recommended positioning, should be considered for each game, by the Referee assigned to that particular game.

Last edited by ajmc; Fri Sep 06, 2013 at 11:14am.
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Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 11:23am
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Originally Posted by ajmc View Post
There is abundant, solid, well researched advise built into the recommended mechanic of favoring the passing arm of the passer, that should be seriously considered when determining the chosen positioning of the Referee.

However, the specific game you are working, play callin preferences related to how this specific game is unfolding, for each team, the Referee's personal capabilities (or rstrictions thereof), the specific capabilities and experience of crew mates, you are actually working with at that game and any number of other factors unique to the game you are working, may influence the positioning decision.

Any and all factors, certainly including all those built into the recommended positioning, should be considered for each game, by the Referee assigned to that particular game.
Well for the record my Referee has been working football for 30 plus years and gets all over the field appropriately. And he complains as if he is going to retire every year. So I am not so sure of what physical factors could be unless you either are so hurt you cannot move and then if that is the case then you have other issues to deal then what side of the field you are on. But maybe that was a good consideration when teams passed only once or twice a game. Now these guys pass 30 times every week and are a constant threat in most offenses to throw. I just do not see how you can see a big play like a QB hit on and you have to rule on a fumble or incomplete pass, which could result in an easy score if the defense gets to the ball. I would not want that game changing play to be decided by anything else other then having a good look. That is why it is silly to me to be opposite the passing arm and no one gets a good look. Because the wing has more to watch then the passer even when they roll to their side. That is not a situation you want to guess on IMO. I do not see what play calling issues would change that ruling.

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 11:31am
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I can't see any advantage to being on the wide side of the field instead of the passing arm side. Regardless of which side of the field we start on, we are still trailing the play as the Referee. We MUST know what happened as far as arm action on a potential fumble v incomplete pass call.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 01:44pm
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For 5-man ... why in the world do you care about the RB going OOB on the wide side. Not your job.
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I don't understand the comment above about the RB going OOB. I mean, we have wing officials, after all.
Maybe it's a regional thing. We have many plays each game where a RB or QB goes into the opposite sideline and the potential for misconduct is high. Certainly it's the wing's primary area. It's the responsibility of the BJ and the R to get over there to help police the OOB action.

Really, now -- how many times do you actually have to rule on a QB pass/fumble in a year? And of those, how many are so close that you can only get it right from the passing arm side? How many are in potential game-changing situations?

I prefer to have the field balanced.
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Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 01:55pm
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Originally Posted by CT1 View Post
Maybe it's a regional thing. We have many plays each game where a RB or QB goes into the opposite sideline and the potential for misconduct is high. Certainly it's the wing's primary area. It's the responsibility of the BJ and the R to get over there to help police the OOB action.

Really, now -- how many times do you actually have to rule on a QB pass/fumble in a year? And of those, how many are so close that you can only get it right from the passing arm side? How many are in potential game-changing situations?

I prefer to have the field balanced.
Here is the thing, you do not have many plays to rule on a QB arm is throwing, but when you do that is a big play. That play usually is a turnover and changes the game. A play on the sideline is normal and does not change the game. And you do not need many officials over to cover such a play. As I said before, the BJ's role is to go to the sideline on plays and I know I go into the sideline when a RB or defender goes into the sideline. If the QB is moving to the sideline, the Referee follows them and watches them anyway so it is not like they are far behind.

And as stated, you have multiple officials that come over to the sideline when players go there, including a wing that is already there. You have not convinced me there is an extra benefit for being on the wide side unless you have an umpire and BJ that stays completely in the middle of the field as if their life depends on it. I think we have too many silly standards about things that do not help us officiate.

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Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 02:03pm
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Originally Posted by CT1 View Post
Maybe it's a regional thing. We have many plays each game where a RB or QB goes into the opposite sideline and the potential for misconduct is high. Certainly it's the wing's primary area. It's the responsibility of the BJ and the R to get over there to help police the OOB action.
I guess I have to ask how often you actually need to police this. Have eyes on it ... sure. How often does your actual physical presence change things?

Also ... if the play comes toward you, you're letting it flow past before you follow anyway. Are you really getting more than 1 step closer to the action by starting on the off side? At best you're saving yourself the need to hustle a little bit.

Quote:
Really, now -- how many times do you actually have to rule on a QB pass/fumble in a year? And of those, how many are so close that you can only get it right from the passing arm side? How many are in potential game-changing situations?
Granted - once or twice a year do you have to rule on this ... but on ALL of those, you can only get it right from the passing arm side.

Quote:
I prefer to have the field balanced.
I would not want to trade off certainty vs a guess on the fumble play twice a year - usually a game changer, since this often results in a defensive TD, and possibly get that one wrong, in return for being one step closer to action on a sweep and save myself a little bit of hustling.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 03:02pm
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The starting position on the wide side would be less than 10 yards different than the starting position on the passing arm side. Does that 10 yards advantage gained to help out of bounds coverage mean more than being in the best position to see a play where a potential turnover is involved, and in many cases a defensive touchdown. As a referee, we have help on out of bounds plays. We have none on action involving the quarterback.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 03:09pm
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Originally Posted by REFANDUMP View Post
The starting position on the wide side would be less than 10 yards different than the starting position on the passing arm side. Does that 10 yards advantage gained to help out of bounds coverage mean more than being in the best position to see a play where a potential turnover is involved, and in many cases a defensive touchdown. As a referee, we have help on out of bounds plays. We have none on action involving the quarterback.
Not to mention that on most of these plays, if we were on the side being recommended, we're letting the play go in front of us before we trail - giving up the majority of that 10 yards anyway.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 03:15pm
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To me, "working the wide side" just sounds like a mechanics system that hasn't adopted to current philosophy or practice. Reminds me of the crews whose wings still start on the numbers when the ball's on the far hash mark. I get that some states still ascribe to this. However, none of the top referees I know (I'm not including myself on this list) work anything other than the passer's arm side.

To each their own. I'll continue to work on the passing arm side where I feel I belong. And (back to the OP), the OP shouldn't let other people on the crew tell *him* where to work.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 04:43pm
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I guess I have to ask how often you actually need to police this. Have eyes on it ... sure. How often does your actual physical presence change things?
Well, we won't ever know, will we? However, our state's philosophy is "the more stripes the better", and with the history of teams fighting in our state, that's not a bad idea.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 06, 2013, 04:50pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
To me, "working the wide side" just sounds like a mechanics system that hasn't adopted to current philosophy or practice. Reminds me of the crews whose wings still start on the numbers when the ball's on the far hash mark. I get that some states still ascribe to this. However, none of the top referees I know (I'm not including myself on this list) work anything other than the passer's arm side.

To each their own. I'll continue to work on the passing arm side where I feel I belong. And (back to the OP), the OP shouldn't let other people on the crew tell *him* where to work.
And to add to that, in our state we have a very bad action where one part of the state does one thing and another part does something differnet. And you have people in one part of the state that want to hold on to these "mechanics" that have proven that cause problems with coverage of the game. And it expemplifies itself when the State Finals come when you see officials working teams they are not used to, not being able to handle sytles of football they might not see. That does not mean everyone in certain parts of the state adopt those mechanics or philosophies, but enough of them do where is it noticable. In our state everyone from the 6 regions has a crew that works the State Finals and two other wild card crews are picked from those 6 regions. I think that is the thing IR is battling as no one in our area (but the person that he spoke to) would even suggest such a silly thing to do. But then there is a reason crews in our area also do not work certain games or for certain assignors. And this kind of insistence on some mechanic that brings more issues then it solves.

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