The Official Forum

The Official Forum (https://forum.officiating.com/)
-   Football (https://forum.officiating.com/football/)
-   -   Fed: shifts involving potential snapper (https://forum.officiating.com/football/95113-fed-shifts-involving-potential-snapper.html)

Robert Goodman Thu May 23, 2013 07:50pm
Fed: shifts involving potential snapper
 
This comes out of a discussion on a coaching Web site.

The ball is ready for play by snap, and A1, facing forward, has a hand behind his line of scrimmage and near the ball but not touching it. (No other player of A is touching the ball either.) 5 other players of A are some distance away to the left of him facing forward behind their line of scrimmage with their heads breaking the plane of A1's waist and one or both hands on or near the ground. 1 other player of A is similarly positioned to the right of A1. Then A1 and the aforementioned players from his left shift to their right to form a balanced line around A2, who as part of the shift puts his hand on the ball and faces forward.

Was this a false start? Does A1 get treated as a snapper as long as he looks like he might be the snapper, and are players of A determined to be on the line on that basis? Or is there no such thing in Fed as position on A's line until a player of A has a hand on the ball?

jTheUmp Fri May 24, 2013 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FED 2-32-14
ART. 14 . . . A snapper is the player who is facing his opponent's goal line with his shoulders approximately parallel thereto and who snaps the ball. In a scrimmage-kick formation, the snapper remains a snapper until he has had a reasonable opportunity to regain his balance and protect himself or until he blocks or moves to otherwise participate in the play.
(emphasis mine)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FED 7-1-6
ART. 6 . . . Following the ready-for-play and after the snapper has placed his hand(s) on the ball, encroachment occurs if any other player breaks the plane of the neutral zone.
So there's no possible encroachment until the snapper places his hand(s) on the ball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FED 7-1-7
ART. 7 . . . After the ball is marked ready for play and before the snap begins, no false start shall be made by any A player. It is a false start if:

a. A shift or feigned charge simulates action at the snap.

b. Any act is clearly intended to cause B to encroach.

c. Any A player on his line between the snapper and the player on the end of his line, after having placed a hand(s) on or near the ground, moves his hand(s) or makes any quick movement.
If nobody is yet positioned as a snapper (ie: has his hands on the ball), I'd be hard-pressed to have a false start under A, B, or C, although of course it's a HTBT situation.

With that said, I don't see how there would be much of any advantage to Team A/K making formation shifts like this... and why would you want to put your team in a position of making an official use his judgement as to what constitutes a false start under A, B, or C above.

BktBallRef Fri May 24, 2013 09:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 895363)

If nobody is yet positioned as a snapper (ie: has his hands on the ball), I'd be hard-pressed to have a false start under A, B, or C, although of course it's a HTBT situation.

With that said, I don't see how there would be much of any advantage to Team A/K making formation shifts like this... and why would you want to put your team in a position of making an official use his judgement as to what constitutes a false start under A, B, or C above.
Ump, with all due respect, let's discuss what the rule says, not what you might be hard pressed to call. What does the rule say?

Restrictions for encroachment begin when the snapper places his hands on the ball. (7-1-6)

Restrictions for false starts begin with the ready for play whistle is blown. (7-1-7)

Robert Goodman Sat May 25, 2013 12:46am
You may be interested in how the discussion has gone there --
CoachHuey.com . The position I'd taken is the same as jTheUmp's above, based on the fact that nobody is officially on team A's line until there's a snapper, and there's no snapper until someone's hand is on the ball. There can be false starts even without a player's being on team A's line, of course, but the specific restriction regarding interior OL with a hand on or near the ground is relevant only to players whose heads break the plane of the snapper's waist. Two people at Huey's say common sense dictates considering players of A to be on the line based on one of them being near the ball even though not touching it.

bisonlj Sat May 25, 2013 04:35pm
If the shift was a sudden movement that simulates action at the snap or anyone not obviously a back or end was a in 3-point stance and shifted then you could have a false start. A team could initially set with 3 on the line and shift into a formation with 7 on the line and there would be no issue.

Robert Goodman Sat May 25, 2013 07:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 895502)
If the shift was a sudden movement that simulates action at the snap or anyone not obviously a back or end was a in 3-point stance and shifted then you could have a false start. A team could initially set with 3 on the line and shift into a formation with 7 on the line and there would be no issue.
"Anyone not obviously a back or end"? So the burden is on players of A to show they're not interior line players?

bisonlj Sun May 26, 2013 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 895514)
"Anyone not obviously a back or end"? So the burden is on players of A to show they're not interior line players?
Just trying to say that if all 7 players went into a 3-point stance (except the one over the ball) and then everyone shifted, technically nobody has established as a lineman because nobody has established themselves as a snapper. This goes along the line of the mantra of a team had better be 100% clean if they are going to try any trick plays. If a guy is lined up 5 yards behind the LOS in a 3-point stance and he shifts in this situation or a guy may or may not be on the line but he's an end if he is on the line and he shifts in this situation I'm not going to worry about it. But if someone is in a position where he would likely be a lineman if the player over the ball places his hands on the ball and he's in a 3-point stance then I'm going to be a lot more critical of his actions.

HLin NC Sun May 26, 2013 07:56pm
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman
"Anyone not obviously a back or end"? So the burden is on players of A to show they're not interior line players?

So who else would the "burden" be on?

Robert Goodman Sun May 26, 2013 08:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 895593)
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman
Quote:
"Anyone not obviously a back or end"? So the burden is on players of A to show they're not interior line players?
So who else would the "burden" be on?
Nobody. You just look and see, no thumb on the scale.

This problem was made by the rules makers when they defined "snapper" analogously to "passer", "kicker", etc. but didn't realize that when they defined the position of players on the line as relative to the snapper in the 1940s, and had certain provisions relating to players on A's line before the ball is snapped, they needed another definition. NCAA's current definition of "snapper" does not have this problem...

Quote:
2-27-8: The snapper is the player who snaps the ball. He is established as the snapper when he takes a position behind the ball and touches or simulates (hand[s] at or below his knees) touching the ball (Rule 7-1-3).
...but Fed's still does.

BktBallRef Mon May 27, 2013 08:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 895452)
You may be interested in how the discussion has gone there --
CoachHuey.com . The position I'd taken is the same as jTheUmp's above, based on the fact that nobody is officially on team A's line until there's a snapper, .....
That's not true. The LOS is established when the U spots the ball. It doesn't have anything to do with when the snapper touches the ball.

Robert Goodman Tue May 28, 2013 12:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 895689)
Quote:
nobody is officially on team A's line until there's a snapper
That's not true. The LOS is established when the U spots the ball. It doesn't have anything to do with when the snapper touches the ball.
The lines of scrimmage themselves are established then, but by Fed 2-25-2...
Quote:
An offensive player is on his line of scrimmage when he complies
with the position requirements of a lineman.
...and by 2-32-9...
Quote:
A lineman is any A player who is facing his opponent’s goal line with
the line of his shoulders approximately parallel thereto and with his head or foot
breaking an imaginary plane drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage through the
waist of the snapper when the ball is snapped.
Unfortunately Fed has provisions applying to linemen of A between the time the ball is ready for play and the time the snap begins, but, unlike NCAA, no definition of lineman during that interval if you take the above literally. It being inconceivable that Fed has such rules that could never have application, one must assume there to be some way to qualify a team A player as on his line during that interval. Since a player of A who touches the ball with a hand during that interval is not allowed to let go of it, eventually that player will snap the ball unless it becomes not ready for play first (or unless some other player of A also puts a hand on the ball and eventually snaps it out of the first one's grasp--another can of worms). Therefore it seems reasonable to consider that player the snapper from that instant on (which is explicit in NCAA), and so from that instant a player of A can be on his line.

bigjohn Tue May 28, 2013 05:50am
7.1.6 SITUATION B: Snapper A1 is positioned over the ball following the ready
signal, but has not yet placed his hand(s) on it. Either: (a) A2; or (b) B1, breaks
the plane of the neutral zone. Both players adjust their position and get behind the neutral zone; or (c) A1 has a hand on the ground and then stands erect to call out
a blocking assignment. RULING: No infraction in either (a), (b) or (c). In (c), the
snapper is not restricted as are other linemen after placing a hand on or near the
ground. (7-1-7c)


This particular case play makes it sound like he is the snapper by his stance over the ball and the other line have been established.

BktBallRef Tue May 28, 2013 10:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 895705)
The lines of scrimmage themselves are established then, but by Fed 2-25-2...

...and by 2-32-9...

Unfortunately Fed has provisions applying to linemen of A between the time the ball is ready for play and the time the snap begins, but, unlike NCAA, no definition of lineman during that interval if you take the above literally. It being inconceivable that Fed has such rules that could never have application, one must assume there to be some way to qualify a team A player as on his line during that interval. Since a player of A who touches the ball with a hand during that interval is not allowed to let go of it, eventually that player will snap the ball unless it becomes not ready for play first (or unless some other player of A also puts a hand on the ball and eventually snaps it out of the first one's grasp--another can of worms). Therefore it seems reasonable to consider that player the snapper from that instant on (which is explicit in NCAA), and so from that instant a player of A can be on his line.
Hey Robert, what BigJohn said! LOL! :D


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:03am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1