BAG IT....or not?

sm_bbcoach · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 27, 2003, 09:21pm

A65 snaps to A15 (QB) who muffs the snap. Ball bounds down and then back behind A15 and dances around on the ground. Finally A45 (RB) falls on it play over.

Do you bag the muffed snap (backwards pass)? If so, who is dropping the bag? R?? Wing?? U??

PSU213 · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Jul 27, 2003, 09:30pm

This is a loose ball play as outlined in 10-3-1c (which specifically mentions the snap). As a result, the basic spot for any potential fouls before the ball is recovered will be the LOS. Therefore, there is really no reason to bag any spot.

cowbyfan1 · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 28, 2003, 01:12am

I say R should bag it as he will probably be the only one to see it. It is a fumble and by bagging it should remove doubt as to what happened. You bag all other fumbles, this should not be an exception.

Theisey · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 28, 2003, 08:05am

Muffed snaps are not fumbles, they are muffed backward passes.

mikesears · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 28, 2003, 09:31am

I agree with Tom

I do not bag this. This spot does not need to be referenced for any purpose.

PSU213 · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 28, 2003, 12:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
You bag all other fumbles, this should not be an exception.

This has come up in various discussion boards before. You actually do not have to bag all fumbles, specifically those that occur behind the NZ. These fumbles and the runs that precede them are loose ball plays, and the basic spot would be the LOS. Since the real purpose of the bag is to mark what would be a basic spot, a bag is not necessary for these fumbles. Many have argued against bagging these fumbles behind the NZ. I don't see any problem with bagging all fumbles (even behind the NZ), especially since many fans have come to associate bags with fumbles, and the bag "signals" to the fans that a fumble did actually occur.

JasonTX · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 28, 2003, 03:08pm

This has come up in various discussion boards before. You actually do not have to bag all fumbles, specifically those that occur behind the NZ. These fumbles and the runs that precede them are loose ball plays, and the basic spot would be the LOS. Since the real purpose of the bag is to mark what would be a basic spot, a bag is not necessary for these fumbles. Many have argued against bagging these fumbles behind the NZ. I don't see any problem with bagging all fumbles (even behind the NZ), especially since many fans have come to associate bags with fumbles, and the bag "signals" to the fans that a fumble did actually occur.

[/B][/Unless of course you are in Texas you should bag all fumbles because if it goes forward and out of bounds it comes back to the spot of the fumble or if it is on 4th down only the player fumbling may catch or recover the fumble. Any other player the ball will become dead and brought back to that spot unless he catches or recovers behind the spot of the fumble then it just becomes dead there.]

Ed Hickland · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jul 28, 2003, 09:05pm

Quote:

Originally posted by sm_bbcoach
A65 snaps to A15 (QB) who muffs the snap. Ball bounds down and then back behind A15 and dances around on the ground. Finally A45 (RB) falls on it play over.

Do you bag the muffed snap (backwards pass)? If so, who is dropping the bag? R?? Wing?? U??

No need to bag the snap for two reasons; 1) it is a loose ball, by rule, 2) you called it a muff. The bag is used to mark loss of player possession, a muff is a failed attempt to gain player possession.

cowbyfan1 · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 06:19am

Yes it is a loose ball play but the team had possesion of the ball and lost it. What difference does it make if it is the exchange between the center and the QB or the QB and the RB? Team had it, team lost it, it's a fumble. To me the muff comes more when a team is intentionally giving up possesion like on a punt play or kickoff and the player muffs it then.. The "muffing" team never had possesion prior to the muff and thus in this case it is not a fumble and no reason to bag it.
Besides 2-26 "A muff is the touching or accidental kicking of a loose ball in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession." Like I said, possession is already established before the snap was botched.

TXMike · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 06:31am

It may not make a difference in Fed but it does in NCAA. Our definitions include a section on the snap that says when the snap is muffed, it becomes a backward pass, not a fumble.

That is an important distinction because of things that are permitted on 4th downs and trys if the ball is a backwards pass as opposed to a fumble.

We don't bag a "bad snap" but would bag a failed handing behind the NZ.

Ed Hickland · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 09:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by TXMike
It may not make a difference in Fed but it does in NCAA. Our definitions include a section on the snap that says when the snap is muffed, it becomes a backward pass, not a fumble.

That is an important distinction because of things that are permitted on 4th downs and trys if the ball is a backwards pass as opposed to a fumble.

We don't bag a "bad snap" but would bag a failed handing behind the NZ.

But still why bag it? When the backward pass is recovered where will the succeeding spot be?

If a player fouls during the loose ball, where is the enforcement spot and wouldn't any spot of a foul be marked with a flag and not a bag?

TXMike · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 09:18am

I said we bag failed "handings" not failed "backward passes" behind the NZ.

We have to bag failed handngs because if ball ends up going OOB in advance of that spot, succeeding spot will be spot of fumble. Plus there are the issues that come with 4th down fumbles and try downs.

PSU213 · #13 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 31, 2003, 12:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by cowbyfan1
Yes it is a loose ball play but the team had possesion of the ball and lost it. What difference does it make if it is the exchange between the center and the QB or the QB and the RB? Team had it, team lost it, it's a fumble. To me the muff comes more when a team is intentionally giving up possesion like on a punt play or kickoff and the player muffs it then.. The "muffing" team never had possesion prior to the muff and thus in this case it is not a fumble and no reason to bag it.
Besides 2-26 "A muff is the touching or accidental kicking of a loose ball in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession." Like I said, possession is already established before the snap was botched.

No, its is not a fumble. Rule 10-3-1c: "A loose-ball play is action during: A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team posession."

As for the muffing issue, Rule 2-1-3, in part: "A loose ball is a pass, kick, or fumble. The terms 'pass,' 'fumble,' and 'kick' are sometimes used as abbreviations when the ball is loose following the acts of passing, fumbling, or kicking the ball."

The definition of a muff does not imply anything about who had or who is trying to gain possession of the ball, and it does not imply anything about how the ball "became" loose (i.e. intentionally or unintentionally), just that it became loose by a method mentioned in 2-1-3. If the ball is loose and someone (from either team) touches it while trying to gain possession, its a muff.