dead ball contact
 

In scrimmage formation, wingback A1, facing the ball, makes a quick, jerky movement causing B1 to contact him in the back below the waist, but not in a way that you'd consider unnecessary roughness. Do you flag for clipping?

Assuming this all happens prior to the snap:
False Start on A1.
Nothing on B1 unless the contact rises to the level of UNR (although my "UNR Radar" would be on a more sensitive setting with contact from behind and below the waist)

No. Clipping, like IBB, is called when a player approaches from the back, not when the blocked player suddenly spins at the last second.

If the contact occurs near the snap, then I would handle it as jTheUmp would.

So "dead ball clipping" is like "dead ball holding", even though the rule against clipping is more a safety rule than a tactical one?

Even if it happens during a dead ball, it's not clipping.

That's why I wrote that A1 was facing the ball, to say that he hadn't just turned. I meant it to be a clear case of clipping where clipping would be illegal if the ball were live, but not a case of unnecessary roughness if the ball were live. I could've made it BBW, but I wanted a case that'd be more or less the same under all major codes.

The scenario I wanted to set up was where B1 thought the ball was being put in play, which means that if the ball had actually been put in play, B1 was going to clip an opponent, albeit probably not deliberately.

This is interesting to me because B1 is saved from the clipping penalty because the ball is dead, even though the rule against clipping was adopted very long ago not because of what was thought to be an unfair tactical advantage to be gained by it, but to protect anterior cruciate knee ligaments. It's rather like the bit about the horse collar tackle that wasn't completed until after the player being tackled scored a TD, and that therefore wasn't penalized because it didn't apply if the ball was already dead.

You have to judge B1's contact, both in timing and severity. If everyone else is standing still, and B1 takes a free shot, I'm going to penalize him for a Personal Foul. If lots of kids moved on A1's jerk, then I may give a little more grace. You can usually tell in these cases when a player is just trying to tee off on an opponent, and I'd err on the side of safety and flagging the defender.

A1 committed a false start that caused B1's contact? Tough titty. Remember the snap count next time.

You can't presume that the picture you have in your mind, comes across as you see it when converted to written form. Not so much an issue of live ball/dead ball as the way ir read, the jerky motion of A was contributary to where the contact was made by B, which in and of itself leads most of us away from a flag.

I can understand why the presence of quick and jerky motion could affect whether contact was made, but not where.

If the "quick and jerky movement was judged to be A turning his back, so as to create the illusions of B fouling, does it really matter where such action took place?

No, I meant where on A's body the contact took place. And if A was already facing the ball, his back was already turned to a B player outside of him.

It's either a false start and or personal foul and/or nothing, based on the covering official(s) judgment.

Clipping and/or BIB is a live ball foul, this is dead ball action.

What if we turn the sequence of events around and make it contact shortly after a ball becomes dead? Is it still a choice of UR or nothing, or can you call illegal BBW or clipping?

How about more extreme circumstances, where the ball becomes dead (or was never live when it appeared to be) but most of the players & officials don't realize it, and what would be illegal BBW or clipping occurs during an apparent play which is later determined to have been a dead ball interval?

What part of dead ball foul vs. live ball foul are you not grasping here? It is NOT going to be a clip.

What if space aliens invaded at the snap? Zombies rise from old graves buried beneath the field? Elvis and the marching band think its halftime and start to perform?

Its still a dead ball foul, no matter the fantasy.

What if we extend the discussion to non-contact fouls?

A1, running with a live ball, steps out of bounds at B's 35, but doesn't know it. He proceeds down the field, turns around at B's 5, and enters the end zone demonstratively backing up, Johnny Rodgers style; an official who also doesn't realize the ball was dead flags it for taunting. Is that a form of USC that can be assessed if the violator thinks the ball is live (or regardless of what he thinks or whether the ball is live), or is it a foul only if the ball is actually in play?

I've only got one season of football under my belt, but it seems to me taunting is taunting.

I concur with Adam. Unsportsmanlike Conduct doesn't care what the status of the ball is. It can occur by any player, coach or other team representative at any time during the contest.
On the other hand, if the wing official trailing the play knows the player stepped out of bounds and let the runner get 30 yards down field without his partner knowing the play had ended, there are communications issues that must be addressed between the crew.
If it turns out the whistles had been blowing, the crew all knew the play was dead and the defense had already started to return to their huddle, then I would rather assess 5 yards for DoG, instead of 15 for USC.

This isn't an extension, its a whole new topic.

USC can be either live-ball or dead-ball, and what the "violator thinks" about the status of the ball is irrelevant. The basic spot is the succeeding spot. 10-4-5a

Is it always irrelevant? If the player with the ball thinks it's alive but the opponents he's nyah-nyahing to know it's dead, that doesn't seem like much of a taunt. Of course USC can occur regardless of whether the ball is alive, but couldn't the status of the ball affect your judgment as to whether an act was unsportsmanlike?

In this case ISTR having read of either a rule or a ruling in either Fed or NCAA that identified certain tactically useless and demonstrative acts while carrying the ball over the goal line -- backing up or diving while out in the open -- as specific cases of USC. So my question is whether those are limited to live ball situations.

My own assessment is that the essence of unsportsmanlike conduct lies in the intentions of the person doing it, so that it shouldn't matter whether the ball is alive or not, but I wanted to know whether the rules comport with that concept.

FYI, Robert: Footballs are not "alive" -- thank goodness.

NFHS rules do.

You haven't seen the way some of them bounce, then. Pat McInally's I think weren't just alive, but trained.