SC vs Mich
 

How can you get a chain measurement wrong?
Why not allow a challenge?
Clowney served up justice.
Amazing!

Good question.

The position the R took to view the measurement was behind the ball, so he may have thought the nose touched the front stake. Had he looked at it from a 90 degree angle, as the TV camera did, he probably would have ruled differently.

My question is: Why didn't the official holding the ball (SJ?) say something to the R and "save" the crew?

Depending on a particular white hat's philosophy/demeanor/comportment, sometimes you can't save someone from themselves.:(

I've no idea in this particular case.

First of all I am not convinced he was wrong. There is one guy standing right near the ball which he can see or has some perspective and he probably communicated to the Referee where the ball was.

Secondly they did allow a challenge. There was no video evidence that showed they were wrong. All the angles did not show much as to the perspective to change the call. I did initially think the spot was short and the wing gave a better spot than I thought he should have. But after that, I am not sure the spot was necessarily short when you stand over the ball at the proper angle.

Peace

First, he was wrong. Everyone except some Michigan fans knows this.

Second, Spurrier challenged the spot, not the ruling that the ball was past the LTG (which cannot be challenged). The challenge failed.

He was wrong how? Because you saw an angle not down the line? I am the person that holds the ball on my high school crew and there is a lot of communication going on with that person and the Referee. The Referee does not make the decision alone at least in my experience. I would suspect the official with the ball communicated what he thought the spot got to the stick and the Referee signaled what he was told as it was close. It only caused an issue because Spurrier was standing there and had an interest in the outcome. I love how they made a big deal out of this while not showing a direct shot down the line, which I can assume they did not have based on all the people in the way. It is similar to what they do not have on many goal line plays to determine if someone broke the plane while the ball is above the goal line.

And the spot was challenged, not the measurement. Actually they cannot challenge the measurement, they can challenge the spot of the wing, which was not in my opinion give a very good spot in the first place. I do not think the spot was that close based on what I saw live and where he marked the ball. I think he gave him about a half a yard more, but the review could not conclude either way well enough. Those things are not overturned anyway unless it is obvious they were clearly short or clearly beyond (heard that from a Big Ten Official I worked with this season). I would have been totally OK if they did not get the first down on that issue alone.

Peace

There were at least two different camera views. Both of them clearly showed the ball was at least 2 inches short of the first down post. One of the officials has apparently acknowledged that the ball was short according to some post game interviews with Spurrier. The official apparently was asked why the R called it a first down and this official was not sure as he saw it was short.

I know one thing. Clowney knocked the HELL out of the Mich. RB. WOW!!!! :eek:

That kid is a beast!!

BTW, a 3 year old would have no trouble seeing it wasn't a 1st down.

Never trust the coach's account of his discussion with an unnamed official.

Exactly.

Peace

You're kidding, right? I've been a white hat for well over 20 years. In all that time, I've always made the final decision on measurements. Always.

It's in my job description.

Well that is nice, but that was not the point. If your crew does something that is great. The point is my crew communicates to each other. There is dialog between the crew and the Referee. An certainly dialog between the ball holder and the stick holder and the Referee. The Referee is a crew member, not a boss. Maybe your crew you are the dictator, but that is not the case with everyone.

Peace

Of course our crew communicates with each other. However, by rule, "The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game."

That being the case, I'm not taking someone else's word that the LTG has or hasn't been reached. I'm going to take the extra 5 seconds to see for myself.

This. Once the chains come out, it's the R's call.

That said, all other first down or not decisions are made on my crew by the line judge.

Sorry. That's incorrect. The referee IS the boss. Boss doesn't necessarily equal dictator, and in any good crew, the boss is not a dictator (just like any good office situation). Communication IS important, as is trust of your partners and teamwork. But by rule the referee IS the boss, and in particular, the decision of first down or not is on the referee.

All I am talking about is communication and crew communication. Not sure what the rules have to do with that fact or what really happened here. And every crew I have been on the crew communicated many things and made decisions the Referee played little or no role in. Actually on my HS crew for years the Referee was not even the crew chief. And if you think the the crew chief did not have say in things we did on the field you would be sadly mistaken. All I am saying is in this case I am sure the official holding the ball told the Referee something. Now maybe he assumed too much, but you will not convince me that the two officials said absolutely nothing in that entire situation.

Peace

I was at the game. Obviously couldn't see the measurement from where I was, but seeing replays afterwards made it pretty obvious that the ball was quite clearly short of the line to gain.

That said, the same crew allowed the wrong team to call the coin toss (South Carolina was the home team but called it anyway) and forgot that a free kick out of bounds goes 30 yards from the spot of the kick - they tried to place it at the 40 before Spurrier eloquently reminded them that with kickoffs from the 35 this year, it goes to the other 35.

So, yeah...the Big East crew struggled with some basic things in this one.

And the rest of us are saying that the White Hat still has the responsibility for the final decision. He neglected to take a 90-degree view before signalling, which likely would have made a difference in his call.

Again you are focused on the final decision and I am saying what actually happened.

Peace

How the hell do you know? Were you there?

Really?

The final decision is ultimately what matters.

It is called a hypothesis. But we do that here all the time, just like there are people saying what the rule is and what they do on their crew is just the same as what I am doing. Unless we talk to the crew and see what their process is and was on this play, pure speculation as to who had the "final say" or what was communicated. I really do not know why this is a big deal. I think the crew communicated with each other and you don't. OK, now what?

Also for the record my crew measures a lot in HS games. We measure 4 or 5 times every game even on well marked turf. And there is a lot of crew dialog before we put the ball down and after we put the ball down with the stick. I just will not be convinced by anyone here that they did not do some communicating and with the Referee not taking a personal look tells me that was the case. Do I know for sure? Nope, but again my take on the situation.

Peace

funny you should mention that.....3 Year Old Girl Adorably Disputes A Football Call | 3 Year Old Cutely Shows Her Frustration - YouTube

OK, let's assume for the sake of argument that is what happened.

This was a crucial 4th-down call in a one-point game. A "big call", if you will. Why in heaven's name would the R not take the extra five seconds to walk around and get the 90-degree look he needed to get the call right?

I would like to have been the proverbial "fly on the wall" in the crew dressing room after the game.

Again you would have to ask him and the crew. I am sure the supervisor has some opinions and I am sure something was shared to explain the process.

Peace

Ironic, huh? ;)

Well said.

Really? My HS crew measured 4 or 5 times all season. I think my college crew measured twice all season.

If you're measuring that much, your wings are letting the crew down when getting spots. Or your line judge isn't very good at deciding whether or not the LTG has been reached.,

Our wings did not let us down, because that is our crew philosophy. It does not bother us one bit to measure on close measurements. It may bother you or others on your crew, not a problem for us.

And I love the college mentality too, because I heard a crew chief make that "We are not measuring today" crap last year, but on the crew happened to be a D1 official. The D1 official took big time opposition to that feeling and said basically that was the wrong position to take. And even went on to say about video tape and how people can see what you do.

No one is letting us down, we just feel that we should measure close spots and not all spots are clearly behind or beyond the line. And certainly harder if those are in the middle of the field where one of the hash marks is the first down marker and yes coaches think you screwed up if you just signal.

Peace

I always measure when it's needed, but 4-5 times a game seems way excessive. YMMV (and clearly does).

As I stated we are OK with it. I think we have a job to do and it seems to me that is part of our job. We are most of all accused of having an agenda and that takes away that part of their gripe.

Peace

I am confident I have had a total of four or five measurements in my entire football career.

You worked 1 game, and it was with Rut?

That's funny.

Well I am the back judge so I have absolutely no say in when or if we measure a spot. Again I do not see the big deal, but if it bothers others I guess people like to get upset about something when they officiate.

Peace

Seems to go in cycles for me.

Had one HS season a few years ago where we had no measurements the entire season, probably because we had mostly blowout games.

OTOH, had a game this year where we measured three times in a half. They were all v-e-r-y close, and all on the opposite side of the field from the chains, which brought some snide comments from the volunteer chain crew.

If it's close in a competitive game, or if it's a crucial situation late in the game (even if it's not all that close), we measure. In a blowout -- almost never.

Not sure it bothers people... just strikes them (and me) as very odd. 4-5 in a career (Adam), conversely, seems quite low. I'd say we probably average slightly less than 1 a game in games with a real chain crew... significantly less than that when it's kiddos running the chains.

Rut is just twisting things again.

How am I twisting things? It is not unusual for my crew to measure that many times. That is not an exaggeration. Of course there are games where there are not many measurements either. But even with a lot of turf fields, many of them are not turf or well marked. And that is what causes the issues or the complaints if you do not measure or when you think the outcome is obvious we are surprised how close, that is why we measure. Turf fields are only the rage in the last 4 or 5 years at best. There have been schools that had turf longer, but we do not all work at that one or two schools that got them early.

I love how once again if someone does not do something that others do, somehow people cannot deal with that fact. Once again, my crew is just fine with our philosophy and for a long time I was the youngest on the crew and was not telling guys that had been through their fires what I wanted to do.

Peace

:confused:

Well, you took a few people saying they thought something was unusual and expanded that into saying it bothered people. I don't think it bothered anyone... it just seems very unusual.

His statement seemed clear to me. Paraphrase:

Even though many fields are turf, many others are not.

I get it now. It was one of those phrases I was, apparently, putting through a Jar Jar Binks filter.

Well it seems to bother them. Why is anyone commenting on why we measure and putting it to their crew if they feel something is not wrong. Rich made a comment, "The wings are letting you down...." Really they are letting us down because we have no problem doing our job?

Peace

Well it was my first season this year.

I may have had 5 measurements all season long. We rely upon the line judge to determine if we will measure. I am the R and I look to him to tell me if we are short or if it's a first. The game moves smoothly and the coaches appreciate that we don't slow down the game for a useless measurement. The line judge has a straight down the line view and he makes a judgement. The times that we measured were in crucial situations such as 4th down towards the end of the half or game and the game wasn't yet decided.

If you are on a well-marked field and the LJ is aware of the LTG he can do a lot to help reduce the number of necessary measurements. If he squares in like he's supposed to he can come in a half yard short or just beyond the LTG depending on how he feels the play ended. If it's too close to call go with what you have and measure. It's no different than making a ruling at the goal line or a runner going out of bounds near the LTG.

The last two posts sum up my view perfectly.

We pretty much only measure when it is critical in the game or the possession. And it does not slow the game down. Teams slow the game down with their play selection. The pace of the game is set mostly by the teams and maybe the Referee and the crew getting the ball back to the spot, which we have done very well. I just do not get this attitude of measurements. What are you going to add 10 minutes to the game and that is a bad thing if you did? To me this is like basketball officials that complain about the number of fouls they have to call rather than worrying about more pressing issues, like preventing things that could escalate into things like a fight, but we saved 10 minutes. :rolleyes:

Peace

Non-sequitir much?

Then why does it matter how much you measure if it tells everyone, "The spot was short." Instead of having a coach (and we know coaches complain) that you did not check to make sure? The only thing I can come up with is the time it adds.

If that is not the case, then tell me why it is not the case?

Peace

What's worked for me, is declaring a 1st down only when I am absolutely certain that a 1st down has been made. If there is the slightest doubt, I'll measure. The same hold true for the Linejudge. If he's absolutely sure it's a first down, he say so, otherwise he'll defer and suggest I take a look.

So, if there is any doubt, we'll measure. When there is no doubt, we declare 1st down and off we go. If there is any request after declaring 1st down, the response is simply, "Thank you, but we don't need one."

That is exactly our philosophy. When in doubt we measure. Also the LJ is not always the one with the spot, so it is not the LJ's fault if we are close.

Peace

Not to continue beating the horse, but in terms of keeping the game moving. I had a game where we couldn't tell if it was a first or if it was short so we were going to measure. The offense was moving in good rythm. As soon as we stopped the clock the coach "informed" us that it was short. He didn't care that it was going to be 3rd down if it was indeed short. He just wanted us to keep the game going without stopping to measure. He was confident his offense could get the 1st down.

I suppose we have just been lucky that we haven't had many close ones. They have all been obviously short or obviously a first down. Watching the NFL you will be lucky to see one measurement in all games that weekend.

You and I both know that isn't luck. It's awareness of the LTG and spotting the ball appropriately.

We know you are going to do what you do and that is fine. I think the point everyone is making is your crew's practice and philosophy is counter to everything you see in the NFL and D1 as well as most of us on this forum. That makes you very unique in this particular practice. Are you at least willing to acknowledge that?

I don't blame the coach depending the down. In the Giant/Cowboy game, it took forever to review a pretty obvious interception, and the DB wasn't down by contact. The Cowboys got the ball back, but way back from the ball would have been had not the whistle blown. They ran one play, and then they had the quarter change. The Cowboys had the Giants on the ropes, but all the extra time allowed the Giants to regroup, get the ball back , and score what was eventually the winning TD.

Say what you will about the Cowboys, most of the games were interesting, and down to the wire. Idiots did cost me on a football pot when they let Cleveland go down, and score a touchdown to send the game into overtime.......................:(

I do not judge a HS crew to what happens in the NFL or D1 level with 7 officials and very well marked fields. Just like I would never compare any college anything to a HS situation. The reality I see a lot of measurements with crews on TV more than I do in my small college crew, so go figure.

Peace

There certain practices at the higher levels we can apply at the lower levels and this seems like a good one. The end of my point was not only is your crew's practice different than the higher levels but different than those who work at the same level (HS). I only asked you to acknowledge that. For some reason you don't want to do it.

You aren't wrong for measuring as often as you do. We will still respect you if you say, "what we do is different than almost everyone else but it works for us so we'll keep doing it."

You keep acting like that this is solely my decision or choice. And you act like it matters to me or the others what college officials do. I am a college official and I do not make HS decisions based on everything we do in college. A lot of things in college do not apply as you have different number of officials and a different path. When I am on my college crew I go along with what they do and I also control little or nothing as to when or if we measure on the college crew either. Also your assertion clearly is not true when a D1 officials made a big deal when he worked with a crew on an "off weekend" and the crew chief said in the pre game, "We are not going to measure today." So obviously everything people claim is done at college levels are clearly not always done. And it seems like everyone is focused on the fact I said 4-5 like that is automatic. I said it was not unusual to have that many but just like any thing else we could have games where 1 measurement is the total. We measure when it is close and we do not guess unlike others. If that makes us a bad crew so be it, I just know it has not hurt us in any way and life goes on.

Peace

I would never advocate never measuring either. That was a stupid comment and someone should challenge the crew chief. Your original statement was that it was "every game" but later backed off a little. Nobody is saying to guess when it's close. They are saying the wings can often spot the ball to make it obvious. We can have discussions and share differences without them getting turned into defensive debates.

And your position has been noted. Not going to change anything I or we do. If you want to never measure be my guest. You will not see me getting upset or telling you do to otherwise. Now what did you want to accomplish by this conversation? Did you want to lecture me as to why I should be like you? As I said before I have two very good reasons why what we do works for us. ;)

Peace

You're entitled to Jeff's opinion, it doesn't matter how often it changes.............:)

I hate to say this, but I've been giggling at your sig every time I've seen it. Great movie, at least parts of it. The word used in the movie, however, is "could", not "can."

I'm sorry if I'm not being clear Jeff. I'm not saying never measure and I'm not saying you have to change. All I'm asking is for you to acknowledge your crew's philosophy appears to be different than every other official on this forum. Maybe that makes you better than every crew. That's not for me or anyone to judge. I've asked you several times to acknowledge this but you keep going after right/wrong. I'm not going to bother you with it again.

Why do people on these boards, feel the need to have everyone see things through their prism?

Why do I need to acknowledge anything other than what my crew does? That is all I care about honestly. I do not spend my time in any officiating capacity worrying about what others do. I do what I feel is best and that is the make up of my crew. We had 3 state clinicians at home point in football that went along and advocated this philosophy. I did not make it up because I was not in charge. We did what worked for us and we were happy. Just like when State Final time came we all wore shoes that did not have all-black on them. It worked for use and no one care, so why would I care what some guy watching TV felt about our choice in shoes?

I think the worst thing people do in officiating is obsess over what other so in their careers.

Peace

Never mind. I guess I'm not being clear in my question. I don't care what you do in your career. That is your perception. I feel if I asked you what color flag you use I would get an explanation of your philosophy on holding. You wouldn't be wrong but you wouldn't be answering my question.

OK this thread has nothing to do with the original topic anymore. Time for it to take the last train to Clarksville and I'll meet you at the station.

The thread is closed. Thanks.