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[Adam]

Change this slightly.

After K21 picks up the ball, he runs to the R45 where he throws an illegal forward pass that a) falls incomplete or b) is caught by K80 at the R25 where he is tackled.

[REFANDUMP]

I would say the ball would belong to K, 1st and 10 at their own 40 since a muff can only be recovered but not advanced. The ball would become dead once K recovered it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

I would say the ball would belong to K, 1st and 10 at their own 40 since a muff can only be recovered but not advanced. The ball would become dead once K recovered it.

Then that would be the case regardless of what K21 did, and nothing else matters.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Adam

Change this slightly.

After K21 picks up the ball, he runs to the R45 where he throws an illegal forward pass that a) falls incomplete or b) is caught by K80 at the R25 where he is tackled.

So, to be clear, here's the new play:

NFHS: K punts from the 50, R21 muffs at the R 45. Kick rolls back to the K40, where K21 picks up the ball....runs to the R45 where he throws an illegal forward pass that a) falls incomplete or b) is caught by K80 at the R25 where he is tackled.



So the first half of the play is the same: K recovers a kick behind the NZ that R had touched beyond the NZ. So K will be awarded a new series at the end of the down.

The run is legal, but the forward pass beyond the NZ is not. IFP, enforced from the spot of the foul, 5 yards. K will still end up with 1/10 @ 50, clock on the snap.

The LOD provision of IFP lapses due to K being awarded a new series.

[legend]

Originally Posted by maven

So, to be clear, here's the new play:

NFHS: K punts from the 50, R21 muffs at the R 45. Kick rolls back to the K40, where K21 picks up the ball....runs to the R45 where he throws an illegal forward pass that a) falls incomplete or b) is caught by K80 at the R25 where he is tackled.



So the first half of the play is the same: K recovers a kick behind the NZ that R had touched beyond the NZ. So K will be awarded a new series at the end of the down.

The run is legal, but the forward pass beyond the NZ is not. IFP, enforced from the spot of the foul, 5 yards. K will still end up with 1/10 @ 50, clock on the snap.

The LOD provision of IFP lapses due to K being awarded a new series.

In the O.P. it was stated that k muffed the punt. I thought that a muff didn't make it a change of possossion. Am I wrong here? Please advise.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by legend

In the O.P. it was stated that k muffed the punt. I thought that a muff didn't make it a change of possossion. Am I wrong here? Please advise.

The only thing that would affect would be the clock status, and since it was an incomplete pass anyway, time is out until the ball is next put in play.

[maven]

Originally Posted by legend

In the O.P. it was stated that k muffed the punt. I thought that a muff didn't make it a change of possossion. Am I wrong here? Please advise.

R muffed the kick. By rule if R touches the kick beyond the NZ, the team in possession at the end of the down is awarded a new series.

[legend]

Originally Posted by maven

R muffed the kick. By rule if R touches the kick beyond the NZ, the team in possession at the end of the down is awarded a new series.

Not according to the book. This is told in 2 different ways. #1 would be NFHS Rule 2-27 (PG. 33). A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. Or 2-34; Art. 3 (Pg. 36) A change of possession occurs when the opponent gains player possession during the down.

So according to these definations, the fact that R touches the ball or "muffs" it does not constitute a change of possession.

[maven]

Originally Posted by legend

Not according to the book. This is told in 2 different ways. #1 would be NFHS Rule 2-27 (PG. 33). A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. Or 2-34; Art. 3 (Pg. 36) A change of possession occurs when the opponent gains player possession during the down.

So according to these definations, the fact that R touches the ball or "muffs" it does not constitute a change of possession.

It has nothing to do with change of possession, so you're looking at the wrong rule. This is a rule specifically to do with scrimmage kicks. The proper rule is 5-1-3, quoted in post #6 above.

[bkdow]

5.1.3 SITUATION C:

Fourth and 10 on K's 45-yard line. K1 punts the ball beyond the neutral zone. R1 muffs the ball back behind the neutral zone where K1 recovers and:

(a) falls on the ball at K's 40-yard line; or
(b) throws a forward pass to K3 which is complete at the 50-yard line and R1 interferes with K3; or
(c) K1 punts the ball and R1 fair catches at his 30-yard line.

RULING: Since R1 touched the kick beyond the neutral zone, it will be first down for the team in possession in (a), (b) and (c). In (a), it is a first down for K at K's 40-yard line. In (b), the pass is legal as there had been no change of team possession. If K accepts the penalty for interference, it will be K's ball at R's 40-yard line. In (c), the second punt is legal as there had been no change of team possession. The ball belongs to R first and 10 on its own 30-yard line. (5-1-2f; 6-2-1; 7-5-1)

[OKREF]

On the original question. K's ball on the 40.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by legend

Not according to the book. This is told in 2 different ways. #1 would be NFHS Rule 2-27 (PG. 33). A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. Or 2-34; Art. 3 (Pg. 36) A change of possession occurs when the opponent gains player possession during the down.

So according to these definations, the fact that R touches the ball or "muffs" it does not constitute a change of possession.

I got a lot of muffs in high school. I was a gunner before the word became popular usage..............Yes, I'm talking about punts. Got three in one game.

[bkdow]

ok, I'll dive in here:

a) The play is dead at K40 when recovered (and a possible delay of game for throwing the ball after the completion of the play depending on when the whistle was sounded). A muff beyond the expanded neutral zone is not ignored. It is a muff and a recovered muff of a kick or punt cannot be advanced by K.

b) same as above