Really, No Holding Call!!!!!
 

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Awesome play by the QB but this should have not counted. Blatant hold on #70!

You must be watching a different clip than I am.

Did you post the wrong video? I see no hold by number 70. In fact, I see no block by number 70. I do see him reach for a player and then fall near him as the QB throws the ball.

But nothing even remotely holding-like.

Hey that's Portage County. I would not have called that.

Despite your yelling about it, that is not a foul.

I was more interested in looking to see if the passer was down before the ball was released.

I just did a frame by frame, and with the quality of the video, the money shot where the knee hits the ground has a blurry arm with at least 40 degrees of arc, and the ball coming out at some point during that arc. Impossible to judge with this video.

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I think I agree with BigJohn. #70 reaches out and grabs the jersey up near the left shoulder of the defender, spins him, and takes him down. Without #70's actions, I think the defender gets there and disrupts this play.

Anyone that calls that a hold will be working freshman ball for a lot longer than they want to.

Peace

#70, reached out, grabbed #54 and spun him halfway around. 54 would have sacked the QB had this not happened. Clearly IUH if not holding.

And the defender is right there around the ball making a play on the ball handler despite the presence of #70. Not much of a hold or preventing a play to be made. It is only a hold when it prevents the player from making a normal play, not just because you attempt a hold. It is certainly bad technique, but not a successful attempt.

Peace

It is still a foul and should be penalized. The TD should not have stood.

Aaaaaaaah, no it is not. If you are being held, you are prevented from going somewhere or some movement. This is the equivalent to calling a holding call on a player that either makes the tackle or the defense loses yards in the backfield on a play up the middle. For one it is very suspect by all accounts on the video and the defender beat the blocker despite any attempt to stop him from the ball carrier. Again, this would be a rookie call, not a call from an experienced official.

Peace

I think JRut is being a little to passe about this one. It was a take-down at the point of attack by a blocker who was beat. It's hard to judge if the take down prevented the defender from making a play any sooner and preventing the "pass" from being made though. This one is tough. This is also a tough one to get. The R will be focused on the QB and the U's keys are spread out so he may or may not get a good look at this. Hard to say if someone saw this and passed on it or if nobody saw it.

It's easier to see the jersey grab in the replay (the second time they show the play), I'll grant that.

What bigjohn doesn't seem to grasp is that it's not simply a matter of seeing a jersey grab and throwing a flag. First of all, who's (in a 5-man crew) going to see this?

Furthermore, it's a split-second judgment in deciding if the grab/restrict affected the play. And that's not a clear-cut decision, either. Although I'm leaning towards what bisonlj said in his post above mine.

So much easier officiating from the sidelines, or so we're told every week.

Almost as easy as officiating from Bristol, CT.

On second look at the play, I'm not so sure. The defender may have been slowed a bit by the grab. If I see that, I would likely flag it.

Problem is, as a white hat I'm probably not going to see it - I got a QB being pressured by another defender and I have to rule on the pass. And the umpire may not get it, either -- and from his angle, it's probably not going to look like anything.

I saw the replay and there are like 3 or 4 players all near the ball. The defender does go around the blocker and runs into another player. That is why I am not calling a hold here and it does not seem like he was prevented from getting to the ball simply on the "grab" attempt alone. There is a reason we say "MIBT" and that was clearly not "there." I certainly see an attempt at a grab, but not an actual clear grab, not with several players around the ball.

Peace

Did anyone notice the Referee (White Hate) going to the wrong side of a right handed QB?

If he is on the correct side does he get a better look at the hold (or not a hold)?

I would have to call a hold on the play...the defender #70 Holds would have made the tackle before the other defensive player hits the QB.

You've posted plays here before, and by and large get summarily told you are wrong, but usually you have a point of sorts. Your suggestions are wrong, but only due to lack of understanding, or improper connecting of two rules that weren't meant to be connected, or the exploiting of what you find to be a legitimate hole in the rules.

But on this one, sir... You are Dead Freaking Wrong. This one is not even remotely close. On the 0-100 scale, 0 being no contact at all, 100 being a WWF tackle, and anything over 50 being "flag it", this is a 4.

As it was explained to me on my very first day ... Grabbing a jersey is not holding. Grabbing a jersey and pulling with enough force to affect the defender --- THAT is holding.

This guy barely got jersey, and had ZERO effect on the player he barely touched.

Is it clear that this is a right handed QB? After all he does flip the ball in the air unorthodox on this play.

Peace

I will have to disagree with you 100% on this play..he grabs and pulls the jersey actually taking the defender to the ground...the defender had a good opportunity to make the play. HOLDING!

I'm not so sure about that. Let the video play and watch the replay they show. Why does the defender go down? This, to me, is the real question -- is the grab the reason the player goes down or is it just him trying to get at the QB.

The grab happened SO LATE. And you're right -- I couldn't possibly care that he grabbed the jersey -- it's the restriction/takedown that could occur because of it that I'm looking for.

There is no chance he took the defender to the ground. The defender was trying to turn toward the ballcarrier. If the blocker affected the player AT ALL (and I don't see that he does), it's in the direction of the ballcarrier. The defender goes to ground in effort to make the tackle as the runner goes by him.

Why do you think it's the "wrong" side? In a 5-man crew with the ball at the hash, I almost always "balance the field", regardless of the QB's throwing arm.

For a 4-man or 5-man (or 6-man or 7-man) crew, the proper mechanic is to be on the passing arm side. Our keys don't change, after all.

Because that's not what you're supposed to do. :)

New in Ohio this year R is supposed to be on the wide side of the field no matter what hand the QB throws the ball with.

That's idiotic, quite frankly. But it does explain why the R does what he does.

"Proper" according to whom? (Our state gives the R the option to be on either side in 4 or 5-man.)

The number of times I have to rule on a QB's arm going forward (or not) in a season is very small. The number of times I can't judge that from the opposite side is miniscule, if ever. The key is to be deep enough initially, then move to get a good angle. This also allows the R to maintain his view of the off-side tackle.

In the play shown in the OP, the QB actually rolls past where I would initially be as the R, which would put me on his passing arm side when the ball is released. I'd be in good position to cover a sweep to the wide side, and be close enough to help on a run into the short sideline.

What is your state? Honestly, in all my time doing this, today is the first I've heard of this not being universal.

That said, if being on the throwing side was not preferable and normal (here at least), and we were told to switch sides based on which hash the ball is on, I'd put the R on the SHORT side, not the wide side. For about 6 reasons.

After the word, jersey, you are 100% wrong. The defender was not restricted, and was going down anyway.

At this point in the game, you have to MAKE IT BIG, or ignore it. Call that on my crew and you won't be working in the playoffs with us.

I saw this too and its a very important observation: don't bail a team out when they have a chance to make a play and don't. This may not be absolute (15 yard "dangerous" foul, for example, happens), but if you think of it as a philosophy, you'll make better calls.

A similar scenario in basketball: player driving to the hole and is a bit ahead of himself. Loses his balance and throws up a prayer, then goes down. Sure, there was contact (can't really drive without contact) but he's out of control, and not due to the contact. Don't bail him out by calling a foul -- a shooting foul of all things.

A hold is one where EVERYONE agrees it's a hold. It's those that cause your jaw to drop on what a player does. Did I say it has to be HUGE? If 100 people view a play and 99 think it's a hold. Guess what, it's not. I want my holding calls to have all 100 agree it's a hold. That's how big in needs to be. If you follow that philosophy you will achieve a great deal of consistency in your calls.

According to the NFHS and according to the Referee Mechanics guide I happen to have here.

First time I've heard of this option. I've never heard of it at other levels, either.

I've got a hold. In the games that I work, this would be among the easiest calls of the night.

However, our mechanics would make it difficult to catch this. It would easiestly be called by the U or wing, though I bet the wing was had no view on this play. An experience R could catch this too.

This was definately a hold. Would like to think I would catch it. My real question is with the play going to the U's right, why is he still in the middle of the field. There is no way he could see anything from that far away.

He sprints out left and has the ball gripped in his right hand to throw. It is definitely a RH quarterback.

I have always been told ANY
contact outside the FRAMEWORK of the Blocker's body is illegal.


b. Open hand technique. The hand(s) shall be:
1. In advance of the elbow.
2. Inside the frame of the blocker’s body; the frame of the blocker’s body
is the front of the body at or below the shoulders


SECTION 2 ILLEGAL USE OF HANDS AND HOLDING
ART. 1 . . . An offensive player (except the runner) shall not:
a. Use a blocking technique which is not permissible by rule. (See 2-3-2, 3)

PENALTY: Illegal use of hands or arms (Arts. 1a, 2, 3a, b, d) – (S42); interlocked
blocking (Art. 1b) – (S44); holding (Arts. 1c; 3c) – (S42) – 10 yards.

True. Using that technique makes a player liable for a flag. But it must also be near the point of attack and meet the other criteria for a blocking foul to be called.

And you know that, and wouldn't want your team flagged for a little jersey pull by a WR on the opposite side of the field from the play.

I know in our game friday night a hold just like that called a td back and we lost 29-28 but hey that is life in the big leagues. Left Guard.

Wish we had you guys at U friday night.



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I guess I got my Holding call!!! :eek:

That's a long shot, and it's not easy to see in the video what your lineman did. But of course on a pass play, interior linemen holding/restricting the defense IS at the point of attack, so assuming there was a hold it would be a good flag.

What's the issue?

I have to agree with RadioBlue on this one. It looks to me like #70 pulled the jersey at the shoulder and twisted the defender away from the QB preventing him from making a play. Had I seen it I would have flagged it.

That being said, Bison is correct about who is going to see this one. This is a pretty long play with 22 players spread across the field. The LM, LJ and BJ are all focused on the players downfield and the R has to decide if the QB was down or not. I would be hardpressed to blame anyone if this call were missed.

A big time hold that had absolutely no effect on the play. A good no call.

Not sure I can agree with the statement. Perhaps the blocker could've just stayed with the block and not grabbed the jersey. But he didn't ... and there's probably a reason why he didn't. That hold created space and opportunity. If that gets seen (and 95% of the time it probably doesn't in 5-man), it's gotta get a flag IMO.