Clock Start Question
 

I am new to the White Hat postition and am currently cutting my teeth on Jr High and Sub Varsity games. I was having a conversation with another White Hat (varsity level) and he posed this question to me: K is punting and the kicker gets the ball away but is roughed in the process. Official on that game started the clock at the ready after marching off the penalty, was this correct?

My answer was no. Team K was awarded a new set of downs after a legal kick so start on the snap. The penalty was a minor clock stoppage and the kick play was a major clock stoppage - using the terminology from Reddings Guide - the kick clock stoppage supercedes the penalty clock stoppage and so start on the snap.

Am I wrong?

I'm not sure this is a new series. It's a first down, not a new set.

Unless I'm missing something.

There was no kick. The accepted penalty wiped that out. Proceed just as you would on any other 4th down play where a penalty resulted in a first down.

Clock on the ready.

You are correct, Scuba, the clock will start on the snap:

NFHS 3-4-3

ART. 3 . . . The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:

a. The ball goes out of bounds.

b. B or R is awarded a new series.

c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

d. The ball becomes dead behind the goal line.

e. A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete.

f. A request for a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted.

g. A period ends.

h. A team attempts to consume time illegally.

i. The penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted.

j. A fair catch is made.

2-26-5 & 5-1-1

Sure there was a kick, and a team was awarded a new series thereafter. Clock on the snap. 3-4-3c

After an incomplete pass we start the clock on the snap too, even if there's an accepted DPI penalty. 3-4-3e

Different section of 3-4-3, but same thinking.

Thanks
 

Thank you for the replies. For those who think the kick was wiped out I found the following case play:

3.4.3 SITUATION G: A1 throws an incomplete pass on third down. During the play, A3 holds. B accepts the penalty. RULING: After enforcement, the clock shall start on the snap. (3-4-3e).

The incomplete pass caused the clock to stop and dictates how the clock will start after enforcing the penalty. This case is very similar to the question I asked and validates (in my mind) the reposnses for starting on the snap.

EDIT: Oops, should have read Maven's response just before this, well at least I added the case play.

The reason for starting on the snap rather than the RFP following a new series after a legal kick is to allow the teams to get their new personnel on the field.

If they don't have to change personnel, start on the RFP.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If either team has a new series following a legal kick play, we start on the snap. Period. The fact that there's a live ball penalty is irrelevant -- it doesn't wipe out the play.

Ok, this makes sense. Thanks.

Nope. Not in NFHS or NCAA.

Me either. Maybe I had a flashback to the 1994(?) rationale for the FED rules change. :D

Argh... my bad. Worse --- I believe I blew this one on the field last year. And none of my crew that day (sub-V, so not a standard "crew") noticed or mentioned it.

Ah, well blame that crew then! ;)

My understanding of NFHS clock rules became so much clearer when someone encouraged me to memorize the "major stoppers" in 3-4-3.

The provision about "legal kick" is tricky because it's a major stopper only when you have a legal kick AND a new series (to either team). If we have a punt, K holds before the kick, and R accepts the penalty, clock runs on the RFP.

Perhaps you were thinking along these lines?

Don't beat yourself up too badly. I'd wager the number of SV officials that know the clock rules around here number in the dozens.

Part of the problem is that we don't have a real clear set of timing rules. It's always been "use the 2005 rules" which isn't exactly right and good luck if you don't have a 2005 book.

Why not use the NCAA timing rules?

I couldn't begin to give you an answer that made sense. There are rumors we might be getting close to that, including adding the 40 second clock but we'll see.

Main reason was the high school coaches didn't want to lose plays with the "New" (7 years ago) rules about starting the clock after out of bounds plays.

I bet if we adopted the NCAA timing rules en toto, we wouldn't see a big difference in game times from what we have now.

Longer play clock, fewer opportunities for the clock to start on the snap.

How do you figure?

What do you mean by fewer opportunities for the clock to start at the snap? Long times between downs when the clock may not be running?

The 40 second clock was adopted as a way to make the timing between downs more consistent. It actually matches a good pace between the previous play being over and the RFP being blown in under only the 25 second clock.

Add in to that, in NCAA the clock starts on the ready in more situations outside of 2 minutes left in the half. The big one being runners running out of bounds.

Subtract TV timeouts from the college games and I wouldn't be surprised to see timing similar to that of what we have for HS games now.

The NFHS needs to go to the NCAA timing rules. Seriously, when we made the switch from the old timing rules on changes of possession, we ended up adding another 10+ minutes to every game that we still haven't recovered.

Now it's virtually impossible to finish a HS game in under 2 hours when that used to be a regular occurrence.

(Quite frankly, the NCAA timing rules are for show. There's no reason to stop the clock at all on an out of bounds play outside of 2 minutes of either half. Or on a first down.)

NCAA: clock starts on the snap.

Not anymore. UIL has codified the rules in their exceptions and we no longer rely on the page or two from the 2005 rule book. That was a big mess and a bad idea anyway -- we even played the entire 2006 season with 2005 rules. Which meant when we got to 2007, we weren't up on any editorial or other changes made in 2006. I completely missed a couple of rule changes over the next 2 years until we had something happen in a college game.

Next year, UIL is going back to the current NCAA timing rules, though there might be one or two minor exceptions. As mentioned earlier, there is no reason not to start the clock on the ready after an OOB play. Sooner or later, incomplete passes outside of 2 minutes will likely be the same.

I estimate that the clock rule added 15 minutes to my games. More incomplete passes and kickoffs have added about another 20. Our standard 20-min. halftime (used to be 15) plus the mandatory 3-minute warmup have added another 8.

So, my 1:45 average game has turned into about 2:20. It's a good thing I'm getting paid $15 more.

Well that's true when they finally cleaned up the UIL exceptions. It is still a mess I contend. I hope the exceptions are tiny and limited in scope.

By my math, you're able to bill that extra 35 minutes (average) at $25.71/hour. That's a pretty decent wage in most parts of the country! :)

Add in all of the pre, post game and prep work and that hourly wage plunges pretty dramatically.

Today was a day off and I was probably in the books for at least 2 hours today. And it was a light day. Where do I send my bill?

I did a Saturday college game earlier this season where I earned less than $10/hour if you considered my time from when I left the house and when I returned.

Change in the timing rules has little to do with Federation game times. The biggest reason is the increased passing game with more incomplete passes. Add talent inequity like the game I had two or three weeks ago with 10 total TD in the first half and we never get off the field before 10:00 now.

When I talk to some people, they comment on how well we are paid. ($50 / high school game, which takes 2 hours.)

I tell them for every hour we spend on the field, we spend at least an hour off the field. This includes clinics, conferences, camps, etc.

Then we have our uniform, etc. I spend some each year on items that need replacing.

Most people are shocked to hear what we actually get paid all things considered.

I am the red hat official (Timeout coordinator) for Big Sky Conference games at the University of North Dakota and we have 3 90-sec timeouts per quarter. What looks like a quick-moving game turns out to be 3 hours.

Agreed on the NFHS change. Depending on the number of COP's the games are a lot longer now.

I can't agree with you. Starting on the snap after a change of possession has added 10-15 minutes. 3 minute warmup has added 3 more.

Proof: JV games here use 12 minutes quarters but we use the old timing rules. Most JV games last 2 hours or less.

We use the new timing rules, but most conferences play 10 minute quarters. About 2 hour games then, too.

That's how we do it, and the game lengths are the same; normally under two hours.

My estimate of 15 minutes is based on the difference in our association's game times in the season (1994?) that the new rule took effect. Same players, same style of offense -- the only difference was the rule change.

In California, I had you both beat. Subvarsity played 10 minutes with the old timing rules. Those games flew by.

1996 was the year. The old timing rules for NFHS (for those who still play them) were 16 years ago.

I've only been doing this under the current timing rules but the quickest varsity game I've ever had was probably 2:10. They are usually 2:20 to 2:30. We've had a couple go over 3:00 but that is because of a lot of scoring, a lot of fouls, or a lot of incomplete passes (or a combination). I think starting the clock on OOB plays like NCAA does would cut out at least 10-15 minutes.

Our fastest games are ones where we have a running clock the entire second half (we have a 35 point second half running clock rule). Those can be over in under 2 hours, but they're lousy games.