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Kick, receive or defer revisited
Varsity NFHS game. The white hat graciously allowed our sideline announcer to join them for the coin toss and put that on that radio. We are seldom allowed that, but it was good to let our listeners hear that.
Last night the referee asked the home team. who won the toss, what they wanted to do. This team is 6-29 since the start of the 2009 season. The captain said "we want to kick." The referee said "So you are deferring, then." The captain said "no, we want to kick." The referee said "OK" and stepped back. He then said "Blue has won the toss and elected to defer..." I explained on the air that even though that is not what the kid said, that is probably what he meant and the referee did the right thing keeping the home team from kicking to start both halves. Good job by the white hat, IMO. |
Certain mistakes we won't let them make. ;)
My crew always asks the head coach what he'd like to do if he wins (defer or receive), and which way he'd like to kick. So we know what the answer is before the captain gives it. |
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But if the captain says "kick", I find a way to restate the question, interpreting that he misheard me somehow. Examples:
But.... if he says "kick" again, then kick it is. |
The R in the OP handled it right: correct them once, then announce defer. DO NOT allow them to choose the kick option. Defer gets them to the same place, and if something weird like wind is at play, choosing the end of the field gets them to play defense first if they choose.
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About 3 years ago, we had a RIDICULOUSLY windy game on our hands. The kid said "kick". R said, "are you sure you don't mean defer". Kid said, "No, I'm sure - coach said to kick." R (as we've all seen before, and as was done in the OP) signalled that his side deferred. Then, as he's about to ask the kid that won the toss what side they want to defend, the OTHER kid pipes up, "Then WE want to kick." That was a S-Storm to fix. We did NOT look good after that. |
I am playing how I do the coin toss in my head and, come to think of it, I don't present any options. I say, "You've won the toss, it's your option" and I can't remember ever having to say more at the varsity level.
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Had a Jr, Hi. game thursday night where the team that won the toss (with their coach present) opted to defend. Asked if they ment to defer they said no defend. Again they were asked (with the question being directed to the coach this time) Are you sure you didnt mean to say defer. And the answer again for the 3rd time was "no we want to defend". Some times we just can't help them at all. By the way, loved the coaches face when after the half he realized that he was kicking AGAIN to start the 2nd half. At that point he said...and I quote "Oh so thats why you asked us 3 times if we ment defer" Costly lesson learned.
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"Do you want to be able to receive the kick at the start of the second half?" ... If the answer is anything that resembles "yes", then assume he means "Defer." |
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I think at the varsity level this is rather dangerous to change their answer to what we think it should be. If they are not aware of their choices that is not really our concern. I would ask them to clarify their position because it is an unusual choice, but I do not think we should make that choice for them. I would ask a captain if that is really what they want or understand the choice, but I would not just ignore them. The other team just heard what they said too and if you do something that puts them at a disadvantage, they have every right to call you on what you did. I would make sure they they understand that if they kick they will not have a choice in the second half, but I would not just make the decision for them. After all coaches do outthink themselves and make silly decisions sometimes too. Heck and NFL coach once took the wind in OT and never saw the ball.
Peace |
The only two options I give are "defer / receive", or "receive / defer", depending on what his coach has told me prior to the game.
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Peace |
I am not going to let a captain make this mistake. Of course, I ask the coach during the pregame coach/referee conference what he wants if they win the toss. If a coach says kick, I'll make sure he really wants that choice.
I don't believe in teaching lessons or picking up the dirty end of the stick. The kind of craphouse that comes from being a stickler here is something that is easily avoided. |
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I also think we need to stop worrying about what a coach is going to think. Teach your kids better and this will never happen. BTW, coaches are at out meetings to they have way to make sure this choice is made properly (state rules and option). Peace |
Had a game earlier this year involving a prep academy playing only their second year of varsity games. We asked coach what he would like to do if they win the toss and he said "kick". I asked to verify he wants to kick and he says yes. I then ask if he wants to kick in both halves and he said, "no. If we kick in the first half then we get the ball first in the second half." I said "if you want the ball in the second half you need to defer your choice to the second half." His response, "ok...is that a new rule"?
This is the same coach who was stunned (in game 5) that he couldn't line up #42 at RG and #81 at LT on regular scrimmage plays. Fortunately his opponent was fine with it since he knew they were short on players. They did an onside kick to start the game and recovered it! The game was postponed after 6 plays due to lightening. |
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All I know is that the teams in my game will *never* start out in a way other than what they actually want. And the captains are important, but I typically ask the coaches what they want, both for the coin toss and also for penalty enforcement. |
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I equate this to what we do in basketball when a timeout is requested. Yes we can ignore a timeout request when a team is out, but that means that we do so with the other team hearing such request and thinking we did not do our job. The funny thing at the college jamboree I worked on Sunday is that very thing happen and we gave a team a technical foul for calling an unused timeout. And the coach of the team that was given the T claimed, "You should have helped him out." But there was not much he could say when I stated, "The official did not grant the request, but there is only so much you can do when he is yelling at you." The coach obviously backed off and got the overall point. If we did not give the technical in that situation, the other coach would have claimed we ignored an obvious rule. We cannot win either way, so why not do what the rule says? Peace |
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We had similiar situation this week. I was the umpire working with a new white hat ( working his second game as WH). It was cold blustery day.
Pregame talked to coaches and both wanted to defer if won toss. Brought captains out for coin toss, winning team, said defer ( everything good so far), then WH asked other team what they wanted. They said defend this way, WH looked at them and said are you sure? I never say anything during these meeting, but I didn't think the kid truely understood what he was saying. So I said to him, if that is your choice you probably will kick off both halves, are you sure thats what you want? He then choose to receive. To me it was possible in that weather they may have wanted the wind, but wanted to make sure he understood what he was saying. |
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Peace |
"Team A, you have won the toss. You may defer your choice to the second half, or you may receive, kick, or defend a goal. What is your choice?"
I have never had a problem with responses when I pose it this way. Only at the junior high / middle school level will I question multiple times their choice other than defer/receive. You want to kick the ball to them? Are you sure you want to give them the ball? I have had only three instances in 17 years where the captain chose anything other than defer or receive.
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At the same time, there's a thread discussing this subject at DumCoach, and the odd thing is that fewer of the youth coaches want the referee to try to fix this up for the players than officials here want to. The attitude there is that if you're playing the game and they're coaching it, it's not up to the officials to make up for the deficiencies of either, and they don't want to be patronized regarding the choices they express.
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Peace |
My Referee on my crew actually just asks the captain, "Do you know what you want to choose or do I need to go through the choices for you?" Then when the other captain has the second choice, he asks something like this, "Do you know what you want to do?" So if a captain states something "incorrect" then he has the opportunity to review the choices again to save them from themselves. Most of the time the first choice is extremely obvious and they only say Defer or Receive.
Peace |
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Peace |
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Q: "Do you want officials to interfere with your captain's selection at the coin toss?" A: No! Q: "Your captain just won the toss and elected to kick, so your opponent will get the ball to start both halves; would you like the officials to double check whether your captain really meant to defer?" A: Yes! |
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In fact, the thread drifted from the original question, which was, "What goes into your decision to receive the kickoff or defer when you win the coin toss?" By reply #30, the subject was broached of errors in declaring the choice -- Receive or defer By reply #47, that, and officials' handling of the choices, became the main topic -- Receive or defer . Although some coaches were concerned only that they come out ahead or not behind in the bargain, more posts -- and longer, more detailed ones -- expressed the opinion that officials not be patronizing and allow the players to make their own right or wrong decisions. Eventually DumCoach himself waded in to say that a team might well prefer to kick off, and gave an example where he made that choice. See for yourself. |
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Despite what these few, rare, coaches desire, the majority do NOT want us to let their players make that mistake. If they want to kick, it will be made perfectly clear to us before hand. Obviously the responsibility falls on the coaches to ensure the right option is chosen however from a game management perspective, I will not let a captain elect to kick or defend a goal without it being perfectly clear that is what they want. |
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I know what the coaches want to do before the coin is even tossed - I cover that in the pregame meeting with the coach. Unless the player told me that the coach changed his mind, I'm going to make sure I make eye contact with the coach and give him a chance to fix the problem before I let the captain make the wrong choice. |
Robert - how many times have you been the referee and had a kid choose kick?
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Peace |
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Perhaps you'd be better off finding (or starting) a forum about youth football. The rules for youth football are different all over the country. I (and likely many other officials here) have little or no interest in visiting a site to discuss rules and situations when the rules would not apply to our own situations - ever. It may be the majority of football... but we have no common frame of reference as officials when you're talking about youth football. The topic of ALMOST every post is based on NFL, NCAA, or FED rules - the "default" as you call it, should be one of those. |
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Personally, i would be less inclined to allow the captains to screw this up in a youth FB game, not more.
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Once in a varsity game and the other 3 in JV contests. I watched a crew a few years back "let" the winner of the toss kick twice to start both halves, and you are setting yourself up with a recipe for disaster and a long night if you don't just oblige and help the spokesman with a simple correction, IMO. You may teach a coach and players a heck of a lesson....but I like to start my games off on a good note. I have corrected A LOT of coaches on this over the years, and never has one complained...usually it is instead followed up with a "Thank you, sir." I felt compelled to add this after seeing the youth football banter. I worked AAYFL youth here in WI for 16 years along with my hs contests during that same time. Youth had some weight adaptations and point structures and a few odds and ends that differed...but the WIAA adaptation of the FED rules oversaw/covered everything else. I am fairly good friends with 9 or 10 HS and youth officials across the country from coast to coast and they all did or still do youth and those programs abide by NFHS rules with minor league adaptations....other than the State of Texas, and I think Pennsylvania tweaks theirs a bit. My experience here is that maybe 10-15% still do youth football games fairly regularly and the majority is high school officials with another 30 to 40% doing college, and 10-15% doing pro, semi-pro, or using pro rules....just a guess. Good day. |
One thing that affects the number of official-hours at the various levels is the number of officials per game. The higher you go, the larger the crew.
But as to attitudes regarding letting the captains make their mistakes, I've got to ask, is the game for the children to play, or are they our (adults') playthings? |
Here is an interesting wrinkle I saw Friday night on this topic. Game tied at 35 at the end of regulation. Instead of sending out captains, the head coaches went out for the OT coin toss. I have never seen that before.
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http://owvfoa.com/ohio%202011%20playoff%20bulletin.pdf
18. R & Toss: Catch the coin or flip the coin again. |
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