Kick, receive or defer revisited
 

Varsity NFHS game. The white hat graciously allowed our sideline announcer to join them for the coin toss and put that on that radio. We are seldom allowed that, but it was good to let our listeners hear that.

Last night the referee asked the home team. who won the toss, what they wanted to do. This team is 6-29 since the start of the 2009 season. The captain said "we want to kick." The referee said "So you are deferring, then." The captain said "no, we want to kick." The referee said "OK" and stepped back. He then said "Blue has won the toss and elected to defer..."

I explained on the air that even though that is not what the kid said, that is probably what he meant and the referee did the right thing keeping the home team from kicking to start both halves. Good job by the white hat, IMO.

Certain mistakes we won't let them make. ;)

My crew always asks the head coach what he'd like to do if he wins (defer or receive), and which way he'd like to kick. So we know what the answer is before the captain gives it.

This. I started asking the coach in the pre-game what his intention is if he wins the toss.

But if the captain says "kick", I find a way to restate the question, interpreting that he misheard me somehow. Examples:

• maybe he made a selection before I was finished giving all of the choices
• maybe he was confused by a teammate or opponent talking
• maybe he doesn't know what "defer" means
• I might interpret that I stumbled on a word and it wasn't audible
• I may tell him that "your choice has some instruction for you"
• remind him that if he chooses "kick", then "that team" {pointing to opponents} chooses in the 2nd half

But.... if he says "kick" again, then kick it is.

The R in the OP handled it right: correct them once, then announce defer. DO NOT allow them to choose the kick option. Defer gets them to the same place, and if something weird like wind is at play, choosing the end of the field gets them to play defense first if they choose.

Another way to make the same point: by interpreting "kick" to mean "defer," they STILL have to option to kick twice, if that's what they really want. ;)

I thought the same thing...

About 3 years ago, we had a RIDICULOUSLY windy game on our hands. The kid said "kick". R said, "are you sure you don't mean defer". Kid said, "No, I'm sure - coach said to kick." R (as we've all seen before, and as was done in the OP) signalled that his side deferred. Then, as he's about to ask the kid that won the toss what side they want to defend, the OTHER kid pipes up, "Then WE want to kick."

That was a S-Storm to fix. We did NOT look good after that.

I am playing how I do the coin toss in my head and, come to think of it, I don't present any options. I say, "You've won the toss, it's your option" and I can't remember ever having to say more at the varsity level.

Had a Jr, Hi. game thursday night where the team that won the toss (with their coach present) opted to defend. Asked if they ment to defer they said no defend. Again they were asked (with the question being directed to the coach this time) Are you sure you didnt mean to say defer. And the answer again for the 3rd time was "no we want to defend". Some times we just can't help them at all. By the way, loved the coaches face when after the half he realized that he was kicking AGAIN to start the 2nd half. At that point he said...and I quote "Oh so thats why you asked us 3 times if we ment defer" Costly lesson learned.

Wait a minute...what did you interpret "defend" to mean? Neither the kicking nor the receiving team can be said to "defend", but if I were forced to decide which team that means, I would say it's the receiving team, defending the field against the kickoff.

Nonsense. Defend means to defend an end. Which leaves the other team to choose between kicking off at the empty end or to receive at the empty end.

Ridiculous. If that was the case, the coach would have been shocked a lot earlier, like when the wing asked for a ball for the kickoff.

Check your rule book and try again. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

...
"Do you want to be able to receive the kick at the start of the second half?"
...
If the answer is anything that resembles "yes", then assume he means "Defer."

I think at the varsity level this is rather dangerous to change their answer to what we think it should be. If they are not aware of their choices that is not really our concern. I would ask them to clarify their position because it is an unusual choice, but I do not think we should make that choice for them. I would ask a captain if that is really what they want or understand the choice, but I would not just ignore them. The other team just heard what they said too and if you do something that puts them at a disadvantage, they have every right to call you on what you did. I would make sure they they understand that if they kick they will not have a choice in the second half, but I would not just make the decision for them. After all coaches do outthink themselves and make silly decisions sometimes too. Heck and NFL coach once took the wind in OT and never saw the ball.

Peace

The only two options I give are "defer / receive", or "receive / defer", depending on what his coach has told me prior to the game.

I ask the winning capt. if he wants to chose now or defer his choice to the 2nd half. If either capt. says they want to kick or defend a goal, I repeat what they said and if they say it again I go with it. My view is that these are big boys in a varsity game and if they are capts. they should know what to do. If I were the coach I'd coach the capt. to choose either defer or receive, no other option (unless it is really windy). I've already had a varsity capt. screw it up this year. If the coach hasn't coached the kid properly so be it. Unfortunately it is equivalent to a turnover.

Hey, not my fault the guy tries to go off menu with "defend" without indicating a goal to defend. The word has no official meaning in that context, but I'd say my interpret'n is as good as any. Can we take it he didn't have his mouth guard in when he said it?

I have no problem with that way to give the options. I just want to make sure they understand the choices but it is up to them to know what to choose, that is all. Again we do not have kids screw this up normally and certainly if a kid said "kick" I would try to make sure that is their real choice.

Peace

I am not going to let a captain make this mistake. Of course, I ask the coach during the pregame coach/referee conference what he wants if they win the toss. If a coach says kick, I'll make sure he really wants that choice.

I don't believe in teaching lessons or picking up the dirty end of the stick. The kind of craphouse that comes from being a stickler here is something that is easily avoided.

I do not think it has anything to do with teaching lessons. The rules are clear what their choices are, we need to just let them make their choices. I also did not say to never clarify, but at some point they are to know what they want. It is like not granting a timeout in basketball. It is not our job to save them from themselves and go out of our way to do it.

I also think we need to stop worrying about what a coach is going to think. Teach your kids better and this will never happen. BTW, coaches are at out meetings to they have way to make sure this choice is made properly (state rules and option).

Peace

Had a game earlier this year involving a prep academy playing only their second year of varsity games. We asked coach what he would like to do if they win the toss and he said "kick". I asked to verify he wants to kick and he says yes. I then ask if he wants to kick in both halves and he said, "no. If we kick in the first half then we get the ball first in the second half." I said "if you want the ball in the second half you need to defer your choice to the second half." His response, "ok...is that a new rule"?

This is the same coach who was stunned (in game 5) that he couldn't line up #42 at RG and #81 at LT on regular scrimmage plays. Fortunately his opponent was fine with it since he knew they were short on players. They did an onside kick to start the game and recovered it! The game was postponed after 6 plays due to lightening.

You do what you feel is proper and I will do the same.

All I know is that the teams in my game will *never* start out in a way other than what they actually want. And the captains are important, but I typically ask the coaches what they want, both for the coin toss and also for penalty enforcement.

When we have these discussions, I am really not trying to convince you or anyone what you should do. Ultimately each of us has to decide what works for them and why. I just think that officials spend too much time worrying about what a coach is going to do if we apply the rules that are clearly stated. I have been ultra-successful doing the things I talk about here and so has my crew as these are not just my ideals or experiences brought to the crew philosophy. Our Referee worked 2 State Finals as Referee long before he got to my current crew for his third and would not handle this as you have stated by saying "never" at the varsity level for sure. It is very unlikely we would ever have a captain "live" with that choice or make that choice without some challenge or questioning from the Referee. As I said, the other captains hear their choice and if we "save" the team from themselves and make the choice for them, we will be seen much worse and predetermining the outcome. I would much rather be in a situation where I followed a rule, then seen as doing something nefarious that affects the game.

I equate this to what we do in basketball when a timeout is requested. Yes we can ignore a timeout request when a team is out, but that means that we do so with the other team hearing such request and thinking we did not do our job. The funny thing at the college jamboree I worked on Sunday is that very thing happen and we gave a team a technical foul for calling an unused timeout. And the coach of the team that was given the T claimed, "You should have helped him out." But there was not much he could say when I stated, "The official did not grant the request, but there is only so much you can do when he is yelling at you." The coach obviously backed off and got the overall point. If we did not give the technical in that situation, the other coach would have claimed we ignored an obvious rule. We cannot win either way, so why not do what the rule says?

Peace

+1 agreed here.

We had similiar situation this week. I was the umpire working with a new white hat ( working his second game as WH). It was cold blustery day.
Pregame talked to coaches and both wanted to defer if won toss.

Brought captains out for coin toss, winning team, said defer ( everything good so far), then WH asked other team what they wanted. They said defend this way, WH looked at them and said are you sure? I never say anything during these meeting, but I didn't think the kid truely understood what he was saying. So I said to him, if that is your choice you probably will kick off both halves, are you sure thats what you want? He then choose to receive.

To me it was possible in that weather they may have wanted the wind, but wanted to make sure he understood what he was saying.

Comparing this to a timeout request in basketball is like comparing apples and kumquats.

I disagree, because both request can be made in the light of day in front of many people (coach included). Heck a coin flip might be heard on a loud speaker. You have the realistic potential to tick off the other team by ignoring their words.

Peace

"Team A, you have won the toss. You may defer your choice to the second half, or you may receive, kick, or defend a goal. What is your choice?"

I have never had a problem with responses when I pose it this way. Only at the junior high / middle school level will I question multiple times their choice other than defer/receive. You want to kick the ball to them? Are you sure you want to give them the ball?

I have had only three instances in 17 years where the captain chose anything other than defer or receive.

• One time was with a completely uncoached JV captain. He insisted on defending because of the wind.
• The second time was a team (choosing defend) that was an absolute monster on defense. They actually had more points on defense than they did on offense.
• The third time was a team (choosing defend) with a strong passing game wanting to choose the wind.

Why not ask him if he wants to "receive, kick, or defend an end", rather than "what do you want"?

When one team says "Defer", I point to the other team and say, "Receive?"

At the same time, there's a thread discussing this subject at DumCoach, and the odd thing is that fewer of the youth coaches want the referee to try to fix this up for the players than officials here want to. The attitude there is that if you're playing the game and they're coaching it, it's not up to the officials to make up for the deficiencies of either, and they don't want to be patronized regarding the choices they express.

And that is the essence of my position. We get so worried about not making a coach upset with us, then we open up that the coach that does not have the original choice getting upset with us because we made the decision for them. Same thing happens with penalty enforcement when we assume we know what is best and not ask them for their actual choice. And the other captains heard you not give the right choices and they will not tell the story the way it happened. So who cares at the end of the day what a coach really thinks if we are doing our job?

Peace

My Referee on my crew actually just asks the captain, "Do you know what you want to choose or do I need to go through the choices for you?" Then when the other captain has the second choice, he asks something like this, "Do you know what you want to do?" So if a captain states something "incorrect" then he has the opportunity to review the choices again to save them from themselves. Most of the time the first choice is extremely obvious and they only say Defer or Receive.

Peace

I wouldn't use Robert and youth coaches as something to bolster or confirm your decision.

I am not using his reference to bolster my position. Like I have said before, what you do personally is up to you and what you are comfortable with. I just think that coaches often are irrational and often do not understand why we do things as officials. I have done many things over the years that officials clearly do as the norm and had that called into question by coaches at all levels. I had a coach think that I was supposed to do more to give the last 5 seconds on a play clock during a scrimmage kick situation. I just think in this situation someone hears you, unlike many other things we might do on the field.

Peace

They say that now, yet every single one of them would be grateful if it was their captain who wins the toss and says he wants to kick.

Exactly. A common occurrence for anyone who has formulated poll questions: it's possible to manipulate answers by framing the question differently.

Q: "Do you want officials to interfere with your captain's selection at the coin toss?"

A: No!

Q: "Your captain just won the toss and elected to kick, so your opponent will get the ball to start both halves; would you like the officials to double check whether your captain really meant to defer?"

A: Yes!

Sure they want it to happen to the other team. But if it happened to them they'd throw a bigger fit than my daughter just did.

But these are not poll questions. They're discussing the issue, same as here. It's not just 1-liners.

Completely, 100%, absolutely misses the point.

Are you positive?

What, you think the problem has been that all of the people in the thread there framed the question differently from the way it's been framed here? There's no chance it's a framing problem, because it's a thorough discussion. Opp'ties were presented for clarif'n, and taken.

In fact, the thread drifted from the original question, which was, "What goes into your decision to receive the kickoff or defer when you win the coin toss?" By reply #30, the subject was broached of errors in declaring the choice -- Receive or defer By reply #47, that, and officials' handling of the choices, became the main topic -- Receive or defer .

Although some coaches were concerned only that they come out ahead or not behind in the bargain, more posts -- and longer, more detailed ones -- expressed the opinion that officials not be patronizing and allow the players to make their own right or wrong decisions. Eventually DumCoach himself waded in to say that a team might well prefer to kick off, and gave an example where he made that choice.

See for yourself.

I've seen the aftermath of what happens when a player chooses to kick instead of defer and the referee goes with it without further clarification. It was, in a word, ugly. I haven't seen an entire coaching staff that PO'd in a long time. Needless to say, they kicked off the second half from their own 25.

Despite what these few, rare, coaches desire, the majority do NOT want us to let their players make that mistake. If they want to kick, it will be made perfectly clear to us before hand. Obviously the responsibility falls on the coaches to ensure the right option is chosen however from a game management perspective, I will not let a captain elect to kick or defend a goal without it being perfectly clear that is what they want.

I read the thread. The times when a coach will exercise an unusual option at the levels I work is incredibly rare. I'll admit that in youth football there are a lot more factors that go into the choice and teams may wish to start both halves on defense. I have never seen that in my decade-plus as a white hat, BTW. Of course, I may work about 1 youth game (on average) a season. I haven't worked any this year.

I know what the coaches want to do before the coin is even tossed - I cover that in the pregame meeting with the coach. Unless the player told me that the coach changed his mind, I'm going to make sure I make eye contact with the coach and give him a chance to fix the problem before I let the captain make the wrong choice.

Robert - how many times have you been the referee and had a kid choose kick?

I agree with that last paragraph totally. It has happen to me in a high school game and we had no problems. I told the coach, "He insisted and we went with his choice." Of course the coaches were mad, but guess what, they realized they needed to teach better. And again this is often prevented in our state because coaches are to be at the coin flip for a "Sportsmanship Meeting" and can stay for the actual coin flip. We can use the coaches as second ears to get the right choice. When this situation happened with me, it was before that procedural change.

Peace

There are some here who assume Federation rules in answering any question, because more games are played under that rule set than any other. I'd like to point out that probably the majority (not just plurality) of all games of American football played are of youth football.

Just curious, but what's your point here?

That's all well and good but the majority of officials here are working Varsity or Subvarsity scholastic football. Knowing the forum audience is important.

My point is that the previous poster treated youth football as exceptional, when, statistically, it should be considered the default, if there is one, by the same justif'n some people take Fed rules to be the default.

Oh. OK. So ALL OF THE REST OF US are at the wrong forum. Only you are in the right place.

Perhaps you'd be better off finding (or starting) a forum about youth football. The rules for youth football are different all over the country. I (and likely many other officials here) have little or no interest in visiting a site to discuss rules and situations when the rules would not apply to our own situations - ever. It may be the majority of football... but we have no common frame of reference as officials when you're talking about youth football. The topic of ALMOST every post is based on NFL, NCAA, or FED rules - the "default" as you call it, should be one of those.

Statistically in what way? The average poster here is not an average youth official. We may have people who work youth games, but the "average" poster here, I would guess, is a HS official. Working NFHS or NCAA rules.

I linked to a thread in one, guess you didn't notice.
True, but irrelevant to this discussion, because we're already assuming the same choices to start the halves as in the current major codes. In this case it's not a rules difference at issue, just that a poster upthread wrote that the game tactics are often different from what you'd expect at higher levels.

Personally, i would be less inclined to allow the captains to screw this up in a youth FB game, not more.

I used to ask the HC that for youth contests and young HC's....nowadays, they all say..."They'll know what I want them to do when they get out there". I kid you not...I have had this 4 times this year up here in WI....3 of the 4 in the Sheboygan area....maybe something in the water.

Once in a varsity game and the other 3 in JV contests. I watched a crew a few years back "let" the winner of the toss kick twice to start both halves, and you are setting yourself up with a recipe for disaster and a long night if you don't just oblige and help the spokesman with a simple correction, IMO. You may teach a coach and players a heck of a lesson....but I like to start my games off on a good note. I have corrected A LOT of coaches on this over the years, and never has one complained...usually it is instead followed up with a "Thank you, sir."

I felt compelled to add this after seeing the youth football banter. I worked AAYFL youth here in WI for 16 years along with my hs contests during that same time. Youth had some weight adaptations and point structures and a few odds and ends that differed...but the WIAA adaptation of the FED rules oversaw/covered everything else. I am fairly good friends with 9 or 10 HS and youth officials across the country from coast to coast and they all did or still do youth and those programs abide by NFHS rules with minor league adaptations....other than the State of Texas, and I think Pennsylvania tweaks theirs a bit. My experience here is that maybe 10-15% still do youth football games fairly regularly and the majority is high school officials with another 30 to 40% doing college, and 10-15% doing pro, semi-pro, or using pro rules....just a guess.


Good day.

One thing that affects the number of official-hours at the various levels is the number of officials per game. The higher you go, the larger the crew.

But as to attitudes regarding letting the captains make their mistakes, I've got to ask, is the game for the children to play, or are they our (adults') playthings?

Here is an interesting wrinkle I saw Friday night on this topic. Game tied at 35 at the end of regulation. Instead of sending out captains, the head coaches went out for the OT coin toss. I have never seen that before.

Why didn't they just arm wrestle for the win and do away with those pesky players entirely?

http://owvfoa.com/ohio%202011%20playoff%20bulletin.pdf

18. R & Toss: Catch the coin or flip the coin again.