Batting the ball

[JRutledge]

I would like the opinions of both NCAA and NF level.

K is attempting an obvious onside kick near the end of the game.

K kicks the ball into the ground and bounces over the first line of R players and is untouched. An R player while the ball has bounced and in the air punches the ball (batting) a) backwards, b) forward, c) sideways in an effort to get the ball out of bounds and keep away from K recovering the ball.

Legal or illegal in any of those situations? And if you can give a rules reference if warranted.

Peace

[maven]

NFHS:

Illegal batting. 9-7-2 makes no exception for R batting the ball in either direction.

"No player shall bat a loose ball other than a pass or a fumble in
flight, or a low scrimmage kick in flight which he is attempting to block in or
behind the expanded neutral zone.
EXCEPTION: A K player may bat toward his own goal line a grounded scrimmage kick
which is beyond the neutral zone and may also bat toward his own goal line a scrimmage
kick in flight beyond the neutral zone, if no R player is in position to catch the ball."

Clock should run after R touches the ball. K will have the option to take the result of the play or 15 yards from the previous spot and rekick.

[Welpe]

In NCAA it is a foul only if the ball is batted towards the opponent's goal line. So it would only be a foul in b. Wind the clock when Team B bats the kick and go from there.

[JRutledge]

What about A.R Ruling 9-4-1 IX?

Peace

[Welpe]

As in why is that AR a foul? It is because what I said previously only applies to between the goal lines. It is illegal to bat the ball any direction while it is in the end zone.

Here is 9-4-1 in its entirety.

Batting a Loose Ball
ARTICLE 1. a. While a pass is in flight, only a player who is eligible to touch
the ball may bat it in any direction (Exception: Rule 9-4-2).

b. Any player may block a scrimmage kick in the field of play or the end zone.

c. No player shall bat other loose balls forward in the field of play or in any
direction if the ball is in the end zone (Rule 2-2-3-a) (Exception: Rule 6-3-
11) (A.R. 6-3-11-I, A.R. 9-4-1-I-X and A.R. 10-2-2-II).

PENALTY—10 yards and loss of down for fouls by Team A if the loss of down
is not in conflict with other rules [S31 and S9] [Exception: No
loss of down if the foul occurs when a legal scrimmage kick is
beyond the neutral zone].

[JRutledge]

So in NCAA we will allow a player to bat the ball away from an opponent in order to keep them from the ball even if it is back to their end zone?

I see on a scrimmage kick but on a free kick or fumble only direction matters?

Peace

[Welpe]

That is correct. Keep in mind that if Team B bats the grounded kick into their end zone, the impetus for putting the ball into the end zone is now on them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

That is correct. Keep in mind that if Team B bats the grounded kick into their end zone, the impetus for putting the ball into the end zone is now on them.

Well I guess I am really not concerned about the EZ but to the sideline or in an effort to simply get it away from the opponent. I guess I just see a hole in the rule whether it is a real hole in NCAA rules or just me bringing a NF rule to the table of my thinking.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well I guess I am really not concerned about the EZ but to the sideline or in an effort to simply get it away from the opponent. I guess I just see a hole in the rule whether it is a real hole in NCAA rules or just me bringing a NF rule to the table of my thinking.

Peace

Maybe you've neglected the fact that if the batted ball went out of bounds, it's still a kick --- and thus still a kick out of bounds.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Maybe you've neglected the fact that if the batted ball went out of bounds, it's still a kick --- and thus still a kick out of bounds.

It's a kick out of bounds but if B touches it before it goes out, it isn't a foul.

[MD Longhorn]

Nevermind - brain cramp... got my A's, B's, R's, and K's mixed up in my head.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

It's a kick out of bounds but if B touches it before it goes out, it isn't a foul.

I am not saying it was a foul for touching, specifically batting. I know it would not be a foul on the kicking team, but questioning if it should be for the batting that would be beneficial to the team doing the batting no matter the direction.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Around 15 yrs. ago in a NFL playoff game where a particular team K, behind in the score, was particularly good at this artificial-surface onside kick. They attempted one, and a particular player of R, timing his jump well, batted the ball out of bounds. 10 yds. penalty & repeat; play repeated. This time in addition there was a conference between the referee and R's captain. Watching on TV, I could only imagine that the ref was warning that doing it a 3rd time would be ruled a palpably unfair act with an equitable penalty, I'm guessing awarding possession to K at the spot or better.

[JasonTX]

In NCAA there is not a foul for batting it backwards in the field of play. Batting it forwards is a foul. If you are batting it backwards you really haven't gained any advantage because now you are losing yards so that's why it's not a foul. Batting it forwards you now have a potential to gain yards assuming you recover it, thus it's a foul.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

In NCAA there is not a foul for batting it backwards in the field of play. Batting it forwards is a foul. If you are batting it backwards you really haven't gained any advantage because now you are losing yards so that's why it's not a foul. Batting it forwards you now have a potential to gain yards assuming you recover it, thus it's a foul.

The advantage in the present situation is that you might more easily gain possession of the ball by knocking it out of bounds than by trying to gather it inbounds.