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-   -   Dead Ball foul or Roughing or neither (https://forum.officiating.com/football/92467-dead-ball-foul-roughing-neither.html)

Lakesref Fri Sep 21, 2012 09:31am

Dead Ball foul or Roughing or neither
 
NF. 4th and 9, 50 yd line.Punt formation. K lineman jumps and ball is snapped anyway. LJ whistles play-but slower/later than he should have. R rushes punter and roughes him on the kick. What the do we have? Two DB fouls in order of occ? or DB False start and roughing-w/Auto 1st down? Or what. Help Please, I have been through the books and can't seem to find anything that fits this.

Welpe Fri Sep 21, 2012 09:32am

You'd have two dead ball fouls. The "kicker" never actually became a kicker becuse the ball remained dead by rule so you can't have roughing.

maven Fri Sep 21, 2012 09:34am

FS. Nothing else happened, and certainly not a kick, so without a kick there's no kicker and so no roughing.

You could have a DB PF on R for playing through the whistle, but if your LJ was that slow or didn't blow the whistle, I'd allow some latitude here. K was obviously still playing through the down, so it's hard to blame R for doing the same.

MD Longhorn Fri Sep 21, 2012 09:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by maven (Post 855420)
FS. Nothing else happened, and certainly not a kick, so without a kick there's no kicker and so no roughing.

You could have a DB PF on R for playing through the whistle, but if your LJ was that slow or didn't blow the whistle, I'd allow some latitude here. K was obviously still playing through the down, so it's hard to blame R for doing the same.

I agree that you can't blame R for playing - but in his case, even if there were no whistle, his actions would have been illegal. He knows he can't hit a kicker after kicking. I have 2 fouls.

legend Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 855422)
I agree that you can't blame R for playing - but in his case, even if there were no whistle, his actions would have been illegal. He knows he can't hit a kicker after kicking. I have 2 fouls.

I agree with this, for sure. Looking for a chance for a cheap shot on the k. Should also be flagged.

Robert Goodman Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:35am

Had to be there. Given the facts presented I'm leaning toward its being a nothing. The players on both teams are equally liable for delay of game if they knowingly played thru the whistle, but if it looks like they didn't know what was going on, it's a nothing. If the kicker's action looked half hearted while the opponent lustily plowed into him, personal foul. However, the fact that the kicker went so far as to get the kick off mitigates against that last interpret'n.

Could the play be dangerous? Sure, but so could a lot of things when they're not playing football, so that alone is not an excuse for flagging it.

MD Longhorn Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 855430)
Had to be there. Given the facts presented I'm leaning toward its being a nothing. The players on both teams are equally liable for delay of game if they knowingly played thru the whistle, but if it looks like they didn't know what was going on, it's a nothing. If the kicker's action looked half hearted while the opponent lustily plowed into him, personal foul. However, the fact that the kicker went so far as to get the kick off mitigates against that last interpret'n.

Could the play be dangerous? Sure, but so could a lot of things when they're not playing football, so that alone is not an excuse for flagging it.

This surprises me... think about it. The hit that the player made on the kicker would have been illegal if performed during a live ball. How could it possibly, then, not be illegal if performed during a dead ball? If the excuse given is that he didn't know it was a dead ball, it still doesn't excuse the fact that even if he was right it would have been illegal...

JRutledge Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:19pm

The slowness of the whistle really does not seem to make much difference to me. A whistle does not have to blow in order to kill a play and a player to realize something is wrong. Many plays end on my crew and no whistle is blown and somehow players stop. That is an excuse, so I have no problem penalizing a player that would have likely had to run 10 yards or more to get to the kicker in the first place.

Peace

RadioBlue Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:45pm

I agree w/ Rut. This is a flag. However, it cannot be a roughing penalty and cannot be an AFD.

Lakesref Fri Sep 21, 2012 01:00pm

Thanks for the help. I Kicked this one I think. We penalized the FS but let the roughing go under the assumption that there was no play. No play - no roughing.I didn't feel very confident in that though and told the coach I would research it and call him.I should have had a DB personal it appears. Weirdly, on the 4th down replay they roughed the punter again and K got their AFD.

maven Fri Sep 21, 2012 01:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lakesref (Post 855453)
Weirdly, on the 4th down replay they roughed the punter again and K got their AFD.

Well, you weren't paying attention on the first one, so they made sure to do it again so you could get it right! ;)

HLin NC Fri Sep 21, 2012 01:47pm

Quote:

I Kicked this one I think. We penalized the FS but let the roughing go under the assumption that there was no play. No play - no roughing.
The idea that you could have a dead ball personal foul in your play never got brought up? C'mon, this isn't just on you, this was a crew brain fart.

Lakesref Fri Sep 21, 2012 03:14pm

You are right. That is pre-game tonight, that and quicker whistles on LOS fouls at the snap. Thanks for the help everyone. Have a great game tonight.

Robert Goodman Fri Sep 21, 2012 03:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 855438)
This surprises me... think about it. The hit that the player made on the kicker would have been illegal if performed during a live ball.

Heck, it would've been illegal on the street outside a football game too, but what's that got to do with it? Roughing the kicker is a live ball foul; no live ball, no live ball fouls.

MD Longhorn Fri Sep 21, 2012 04:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 855477)
Heck, it would've been illegal on the street outside a football game too, but what's that got to do with it? Roughing the kicker is a live ball foul; no live ball, no live ball fouls.

LOTS of things are illegal on the street, but ok inside a game.

I don't believe I was saying this was a live ball foul.


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