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The Stiff

Wed Aug 29, 2012 02:03pm

Whose Ball Following This Play

Federation Rules — Fourth down and 10 from midfield. A's punt is muffed on the R 40 and rebounds back behind the neutral zone, where A2 picks it up at the A 45 yard line and throws an incomplete pass. Where will the ball be put in play next?

mbyron

Wed Aug 29, 2012 02:29pm

Depends who muffs it. I'm assuming you mean R muffs it back behind the NZ. In that case, whoever ends with possession will be awarded a new series. 5-1-3f

Since the legal forward pass is incomplete, the ball will return to the previous spot. A 1/10 @ 50, clock on the snap.

Welpe

Wed Aug 29, 2012 03:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 852807)

depends who muffs it. I'm assuming you mean r muffs it back behind the nz. In that case, whoever ends with possession will be awarded a new series. 5-1-3f

since the legal forward pass is incomplete, the ball will return to the previous spot. A 1/10 @ 50, clock on the snap.

Tom.OH

Wed Aug 29, 2012 03:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 852807)

...and after R coach goes nuts and draws a USC flag, it will be A ball 1/10 at the B 35...

bisonlj

Wed Aug 29, 2012 05:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom.OH (Post 852812)

...and after R coach goes nuts and draws a USC flag, it will be A ball 1/10 at the B 35...

I have seen this play discussed many times but nobody has ever confirmed seeing it happen.

jchamp

Wed Aug 29, 2012 06:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 852807)

Does the muffing of a punt constitute a change of possession that makes it illegal to throw a forward pass?

mbyron

Wed Aug 29, 2012 06:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchamp (Post 852833)

Does the muffing of a punt constitute a change of possession that makes it illegal to throw a forward pass?

No. Muffing by definition is an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. 2-27

mtridge

Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:23pm

What happens if A threw the pass past the LOS to an Ineligible receiver?

mbyron

Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtridge (Post 852894)

What happens if A threw the pass past the LOS to an Ineligible receiver?

So the new play is as follows:

Fourth down and 10 from midfield. K's punt is muffed on the R 40 and rebounds back behind the neutral zone, where K2 picks it up at the K45 yard line, runs to the R48, and throws an incomplete pass to ineligible K79. Where will the ball be put in play next?

The ineligible downfield (if K79 was downfield) and illegal touching (if K79 touched the pass) are ignored since we have an illegal forward pass. K's recovery and advance are legal. The foul for IFP will be enforced from the spot of the foul, 5 yards, back to the K47. IFP carries a LOD, so it will be R's ball, 1/10 @ K47, clock on the snap.

MD Longhorn

Thu Aug 30, 2012 02:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 852903)

So the new play is as follows:

Fourth down and 10 from midfield. K's punt is muffed on the R 40 and rebounds back behind the neutral zone, where K2 picks it up at the K45 yard line, runs to the R48, and throws an incomplete pass to ineligible K79. Where will the ball be put in play next?

The ineligible downfield (if K79 was downfield) and illegal touching (if K79 touched the pass) are ignored since we have an illegal forward pass. K's recovery and advance are legal. The foul for IFP will be enforced from the spot of the foul, 5 yards, back to the K47. IFP carries a LOD, so it will be R's ball, 1/10 @ K47, clock on the snap.

Think about that part again (in the context of a play where a new series would have been awarded absent the IFP...)

CT1	Thu Aug 30, 2012 02:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 852903)

So the new play is as follows:

Fourth down and 10 from midfield. K's punt is muffed on the R 40 and rebounds back behind the neutral zone, where K2 picks it up at the K45 yard line, runs to the R48, and throws an incomplete pass to ineligible K79. Where will the ball be put in play next?

I hope you meant "K's ball".

This is realistically a COP play, and the LOD aspect of the penalty has no effect.

Robert Goodman

Thu Aug 30, 2012 04:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 852915)

I hope you meant "K's ball".

This is realistically a COP play, and the LOD aspect of the penalty has no effect.

When did team possession change?

MD Longhorn

Thu Aug 30, 2012 04:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 852918)

When did team possession change?

No need to be obtuse... he didn't say possession changed, he said it was realistically a COP play. Probably not the best word, I'd have gone with essentially instead of realistically. But you know what he meant.

(And if you don't ... answer my question, I was going to the same place he was, I was just trying to walk the poster there instead of just giving the answer).

mbyron

Thu Aug 30, 2012 07:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 852910)

Think about that part again (in the context of a play where a new series would have been awarded absent the IFP...)

Whoops. New series when R touches the kick beyond the NZ. I know better.

Correct answer:

The ineligible downfield (if K79 was downfield) and illegal touching (if K79 touched the pass) are ignored since we have an illegal forward pass. K's recovery and advance are legal. The foul for IFP will be enforced from the spot of the foul, 5 yards, back to the K47. Since R touched the kick beyond the NZ, K is awarded a new series. IFP's LOD is ignored, so it will be K ball, 1/10 @ K47, clock on the snap.

Robert Goodman

Thu Aug 30, 2012 08:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 852919)

Actually I didn't, but if i'd been more awake when I read it, I would've. I'd misread a detail of what he wrote, got onto the wrong track.

CT1	Fri Aug 31, 2012 05:54am

Evidently, I should have used the phrase "For enforcement purposes, this is a COP play". :rolleyes:

MD Longhorn

Fri Aug 31, 2012 09:27am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman (Post 852933)

Actually I didn't, but if i'd been more awake when I read it, I would've. I'd misread a detail of what he wrote, got onto the wrong track.

Cool.

mtridge

Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:03am

If it a complete pass to K79 do we take ignore the OPI and take IFP or vica verca?

dvasques

Fri Aug 31, 2012 01:14pm

Ok... I know the original question was Federation rules but since I'm back and still working IFAF/NCAA rules here in Brasil, I gotta ask about this situation...
muffed kick beyond NZ bounces back behind NZ, R picks it up and passes forward from behind NZ

That's a legal pass in NCAA/IFAF?

CT1	Fri Aug 31, 2012 01:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtridge (Post 852975)

If it a complete pass to K79 do we take ignore the OPI and take IFP or vica verca?

No, you don't ignore it. But you do call the correct foul.

If K79 has done nothing other than catch the ball, it's Illegal Touching, not OPI.

Same penalty yardage, although the basic spot for the IT would be the previous spot. You still can't enforce the LOD provision.

mtridge

Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:02am

It would be a OPI. Case book 7.5.13 If ineligible catches the ball beyond the LOS it is OPI

mbyron

Sun Sep 02, 2012 08:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtridge (Post 853074)

It would be a OPI. Case book 7.5.13 If ineligible catches the ball beyond the LOS it is OPI

Not OPI. NFHS fixed this case play in the 2012 interps.

Quote:

Page 61, *7.5.13 SITUATION A: Ineligible receiver A2 is behind, in or beyond his neutral zone and has committed no act against a defender that could be considered pass interference when a forward pass by A1: (a) accidentally strikes him in the back; or (b) is muffed by him; or (c) is caught by him. RULING: In (a), there is no foul for illegal touching. In (b) and (c), it is illegal touching. <S>and if beyond the line of scrimmage, would also be offensive pass interference.</S> The acts in both (b) and (c) are intentional and not accidental as in (a). COMMENT: Game officials should be very clear in explaining penalty options if the same act constitutes more than one foul as listed above, as each of the fouls has a different penalty.

NFHS | 2012 NFHS Football Rules Interpretations

JugglingReferee

Mon Sep 03, 2012 04:36am

Canadian Ruling

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Stiff (Post 852804)

CANADIAN RULING:

Interpret as an offside pass - live ball.

mtridge

Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:59am

Thanks mbyron. Didn't know that website existed. Very useful.

Robert Goodman

Tue Sep 04, 2012 06:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee (Post 853107)

CANADIAN RULING:

Interpret as an offside pass - live ball.

So the pass is considered to have been thrown during possession other than from scrimmage? I.e. possession from scrimmage ends when the ball is kicked past the line of scrimmage?

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