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-   -   Free Kick Play (https://forum.officiating.com/football/92161-free-kick-play.html)

Fedex Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:46am
Free Kick Play
 
NFHS Rules.

During a kickoff, K1 is forced out of bounds by R1 at the 50. While still out of bounds and attempting to re-enter the field of play, K1 is contacted by R2 at the R45. After the contact, K1 stays out of bounds and re-enters the playing field at the R30. What do you have?

Thanks!

Scott

ump33 Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedex (Post 850384)
NFHS Rules.

During a kickoff, K1 is forced out of bounds by R1 at the 50.
No problem ... K1 was blocked/forced out

Quote:
While still out of bounds and attempting to re-enter the field of play, K1 is contacted by R2 at the R45.
Still no problem on K, he is attempting to re-enter at his first opportunity. Play does not state that R went out of bounds to block K, so no foul on R

Quote:
After the contact, K1 stays out of bounds and re-enters the playing field at the R30.
Oops, from the R45 to the R30 and the play states "K1 stays OB". That does not sound like first opportunity ... Illegal Participation on K1 when he returns inbounds at the R30.

Enforcement depends of the status of the ball when K1 returned inbounds (9-6-1).

mbyron Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ump33 (Post 850395)
Enforcement depends of the status of the ball when K1 returned inbounds (9-6-1).
I believe you're saying that enforcement will depend on whether the foul occurs before or after R gains possession (whether the kick has ended). The basic spot will be the previous spot for the former (loose ball play), or the end of the run for the latter (running play).

But I would add that whether you have a foul also depends on a different status of the ball when K1 returned to the field. If the ball was dead, he couldn't have participated.

It's also worth remembering that, although the spot of the foul in this case is where K1 re-entered the field, the foul is for participating, not merely re-entering.

Fedex Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:16pm
Just some clarification...

R2 did contact K1 out of bounds, before he could return.

When K1 did return to the field of play, R3 had possession of the ball and the play was still live.

The reason I am asking is that I had this play happen to me and I am wondering if I got it right.

MD Longhorn Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedex (Post 850415)
Just some clarification...

R2 did contact K1 out of bounds, before he could return.

When K1 did return to the field of play, R3 had possession of the ball and the play was still live.

The reason I am asking is that I had this play happen to me and I am wondering if I got it right.
What did K1 do after returning to the field? Where was R2 when the contact occurred?

Fedex Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 850421)
What did K1 do after returning to the field? Where was R2 when the contact occurred?
K1 came back into the field of play, but really didn't have an impact on the play.

R2 was a step out of bounds and K1 was fully out of bounds when the contact occurred.

MD Longhorn Mon Jul 30, 2012 01:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedex (Post 850429)
K1 came back into the field of play, but really didn't have an impact on the play.

R2 was a step out of bounds and K1 was fully out of bounds when the contact occurred.
I've got 15 on R, nothing on K.

mbyron Mon Jul 30, 2012 01:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 850440)
I've got 15 on R, nothing on K.
Under NFHS? For what? No rule -- or at least no provision of 9-4 -- prohibits R from blocking K in this case.

Indeed, if you're going to flag R here, you MUST flag K, since K is clearly participating by occupying a blocker!

And, as a game management issue: if K1 has run 15 yds downfield and OOB in order to get in on this play, I'm not flagging R for a hit that's 6 inches OOB and getting K off the hook for IP.

mbyron Mon Jul 30, 2012 01:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedex (Post 850429)
K1 came back into the field of play, but really didn't have an impact on the play.
Careful here. If you mean he didn't tackle the runner, then there's more to "have an impact" than you're thinking.

If the K player occupies a blocker, then his illegal act has affected the play and gained K an advantage. That's illegal participation, and it needs to be flagged.

I get that many people don't like the NFHS rule here, but that's a separate issue.

Fedex Mon Jul 30, 2012 02:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 850448)
Careful here. If you mean he didn't tackle the runner, then there's more to "have an impact" than you're thinking.

If the K player occupies a blocker, then his illegal act has affected the play and gained K an advantage. That's illegal participation, and it needs to be flagged.

I get that many people don't like the NFHS rule here, but that's a separate issue.
Fair enough...to further clarify, R3 was tackled on the other side of the field away from K1. K1 did participate by re-entering the field.

Fedex Mon Jul 30, 2012 02:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 850446)
Under NFHS? For what? No rule -- or at least no provision of 9-4 -- prohibits R from blocking K in this case.

Indeed, if you're going to flag R here, you MUST flag K, since K is clearly participating by occupying a blocker!

And, as a game management issue: if K1 has run 15 yds downfield and OOB in order to get in on this play, I'm not flagging R for a hit that's 6 inches OOB and getting K off the hook for IP.
This is part of what I am looking at. K was clearly out of bounds in the restricted area. When R2 made the block, he took a step into the restricted area and contacted K1. Does this justify a personal foul? Trying to find a good reference to support it.

As far as K1 goes, he ran right through the restricted area until he got to the R30 and then re-entered the playing field. He did not run through the bench area at all. To be honest, I don't believe K1 or R2 knew where the heck they were on the field.

ump33 Mon Jul 30, 2012 03:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedex (Post 850459)
This is part of what I am looking at. K was clearly out of bounds in the restricted area. When R2 made the block, he took a step into the restricted area and contacted K1. Does this justify a personal foul? Trying to find a good reference to support it.
No, it is not a PF. It is Illegal Participation
9-6-2 ... No player shall intentionally go out of bounds during the down and:
a. Return to the field;
b. Intentionally touch the ball;
c. Influence the play; or
d. Otherwise participate.


Quote:
As far as K1 goes, he ran right through the restricted area until he got to the R30 and then re-entered the playing field. He did not run through the bench area at all. To be honest, I don't believe K1 or R2 knew where the heck they were on the field.
It does not matter if K1 made the tackle, chased the runner or was blocked by anyone. When K1 returned inbounds, he was guilty of Illegal Participation at the R30 because he did not "return at the first opportunity" (he ran 15 yards out of bounds).
9-6-1 . . . Prior to a change of possession, or when there is no change of possession, no player of A or K shall go out of bounds and return to the field during the down unless blocked out of bounds by an opponent. If a player is blocked out of bounds by an opponent and returns to the field during the down, he shall return at the first opportunity.

Double Foul, offset and replay the down.

Fedex Tue Jul 31, 2012 08:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ump33 (Post 850474)
No, it is not a PF. It is Illegal Participation
9-6-2 ... No player shall intentionally go out of bounds during the down and:
a. Return to the field;
b. Intentionally touch the ball;
c. Influence the play; or
d. Otherwise participate.



It does not matter if K1 made the tackle, chased the runner or was blocked by anyone. When K1 returned inbounds, he was guilty of Illegal Participation at the R30 because he did not "return at the first opportunity" (he ran 15 yards ont of bounds).
9-6-1 . . . Prior to a change of possession, or when there is no change of possession, no player of A or K shall go out of bounds and return to the field during the down unless blocked out of bounds by an opponent. If a player is blocked out of bounds by an opponent and returns to the field during the down, he shall return at the first opportunity.

Double Foul, offset and replay the down.
This was how I called it, but I had a PF on R2 and IP on K1 and we re-kicked. Thanks for the rule reference. I guess it should have been IP on both R2 and K1. I appreciate the discussion!

Scott

JugglingReferee Tue Jul 31, 2012 09:41am
Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedex (Post 850384)
During a kickoff, K1 is forced out of bounds by R1 at the 50. While still out of bounds and attempting to re-enter the field of play, K1 is contacted by R2 at the R45. After the contact, K1 stays out of bounds and re-enters the playing field at the R30. What do you have?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedex (Post 850429)
K1 came back into the field of play, but really didn't have an impact on the play.

R2 was a step out of bounds and K1 was fully out of bounds when the contact occurred.
CANADIAN RULING:

No initial foul on K1 because he was blocked to out of bounds.

It sounds as though R2 was out of bounds illegally who then participated. Flag for Illegal Participation.

If K1 used the out of bounds area to his advantage, then I have Illegal Participation on him as well.

MD Longhorn Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 850446)
Indeed, if you're going to flag R here, you MUST flag K, since K is clearly participating by occupying a blocker!
What? At this point, K is doing what he's allowed to do - trying to return to the field immediately after being blocked out of bounds. How in the world can K be flagged at this point in the play?

I see your point later in the play - after running 15 yards out of bounds, if he comes in and occupies a blocker, he could be flagged for IP (play going the other way is not enough to rule it out -- but if the play ended very shortly after K re-entered, I\'d not flag it.


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