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McMac Mon Jun 18, 2012 07:12pm
OT Illegal Forward Pass
 
Standard HS overtime rules (play starts 1st & goal at 10), first possession of the overtime (B has not had possession)

On 4th and goal from the 7, QB A1 throws an illegal forward pass from the 6 yd. (a) The pass is incomplete. (b) The pass is completed to A2 but downed at the 3 yd line. (c) The pass is completed to A2 for a touchdown.

Discussion tonight at our meeting was that no matter what, it will be B's ball with the penalty (or declined if they want in (a) or (b)) but if the penalty is accepted where will B start the new possession. I will let y'all respond, and then I will post what our conclusion was.

HLin NC Mon Jun 18, 2012 07:31pm
10 yard line, 1st and goal B

See "Resolving Tied Games Interpretations" 3.1.1 Situation I (b)

Texas Aggie Tue Jun 19, 2012 01:53pm
Interesting. For NCAA, the penalty for this foul is enforced from the spot of the foul. Is the yardage penalty not enforced if it can't be done from the stated enforcement spot?

I would enforce the 5 yards and start at the 20. If this were a normal 4th down play in regulation, Team B would get 5 yards in addition to the ball.

HLin NC Tue Jun 19, 2012 08:03pm
Only foul that would be enforced here would be a succeeding spot foul.

Robert Goodman Tue Jun 19, 2012 09:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 846659)
Interesting. For NCAA, the penalty for this foul is enforced from the spot of the foul. Is the yardage penalty not enforced if it can't be done from the stated enforcement spot?

I would enforce the 5 yards and start at the 20. If this were a normal 4th down play in regulation, Team B would get 5 yards in addition to the ball.
That makes sense only when the spot you're left with after enforcement is the succeeding spot. You wouldn't apply your logic to the kickoff after a try, would you? Or the kickoff to start the 2nd half if the 1st half ended with this loss of down? Or if the penalty resulted in a safety?

BktBallRef Tue Jun 19, 2012 09:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by McMac (Post 846582)
Standard HS overtime rules (play starts 1st & goal at 10), first possession of the overtime (B has not had possession)

On 4th and goal from the 7, QB A1 throws an illegal forward pass from the 6 yd. (a) The pass is incomplete. (b) The pass is completed to A2 but downed at the 3 yd line. (c) The pass is completed to A2 for a touchdown.

Discussion tonight at our meeting was that no matter what, it will be B's ball with the penalty (or declined if they want in (a) or (b)) but if the penalty is accepted where will B start the new possession. I will let y'all respond, and then I will post what our conclusion was.
HLinNC is correct. 1st & goal from A's 10 for B.

Only a succeeding spot penalty would change where B begins their drive.

Texas Aggie Tue Jun 19, 2012 09:48pm
Quote:
You wouldn't apply your logic to the kickoff after a try, would you? Or the kickoff to start the 2nd half if the 1st half ended with this loss of down? Or if the penalty resulted in a safety?
There are specific rules for these situations. 10.5 covers fouls during a try. End of period fouls are covered in 3.3. If the penalty resulted in a safety, there is no yardage mark off. The definition of penalty in Rule 2 does not include a score, so a safety is only awarded specifically under certain fouls and there is no additional yardage in those cases.

Show me a SPECIFIC rule disproving what I said.

ODJ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:59pm
A's "loss of down" penalty means A does not get to try again. Series/possession over.
B ball, 1 & 10 @ 10.

HLin NC Wed Jun 20, 2012 07:07am
Aggie, the OP said standard HS rules, meaning Fed. If you want to make your stance on NCAA, fine but that wasn't the topic to begin with.

I cited the case play for NF.

Robert Goodman Wed Jun 20, 2012 09:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 846703)
There are specific rules for these situations. 10.5 covers fouls during a try. End of period fouls are covered in 3.3. If the penalty resulted in a safety, there is no yardage mark off. The definition of penalty in Rule 2 does not include a score, so a safety is only awarded specifically under certain fouls and there is no additional yardage in those cases.

Show me a SPECIFIC rule disproving what I said.
10-1-1(c) [NCAA]. The penalty is completed, then the down counts, resulting in the tiebreaking period's ending.

Texas Aggie Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:33pm
The rule you cite is not in conflict. Also, the period is NOT ended. From Rule 3: "An extra period shall consist of two possession series..." The OP said it was the first possession of OT.

NC: I know, but I was just posting the NCAA rule and replying to those who responded to me. If a mod could clean this up by putting the NCAA talk in a new thread, that would be fine.

McMac Wed Jun 20, 2012 01:15pm
Our discussion Monday night went around the same way this is. But as HLinNc mentioned the situation in the Rulebook, that was our basis for also saying that B would start 1 & G at the 10 as this is not a succeeding spot penalty.

MD Longhorn Wed Jun 20, 2012 01:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 846659)
Interesting. For NCAA, the penalty for this foul is enforced from the spot of the foul. Is the yardage penalty not enforced if it can't be done from the stated enforcement spot?

I would enforce the 5 yards and start at the 20. If this were a normal 4th down play in regulation, Team B would get 5 yards in addition to the ball.
This is not correct. If this was regulation, they'd get 5 yards and the ball at that spot. On a normal 4th down play that fails, they get the ball at the spot the 4th down play ended.

In overtime, NEITHER are true. The penalty is the yardage and loss of down, ending the series. You don't move back to the normal OT spot until AFTER the series ends. There was a case play on this about 2 years ago, maybe 3. This penalty ends A's series. B's series starts at the normal spot.


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