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footballref1970 Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:43am

National Federation New Kickoff Mechanics
 
Could someone please tell me what the new mechanics are for kickoffs is for national federation games. Thnaks for your help in this.

bcl1127 Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by footballref1970 (Post 845813)
Could someone please tell me what the new mechanics are for kickoffs is for national federation games. Thnaks for your help in this.

Here you go :

KICKOFF MECHANICS AND COVERAGE
Significant changes were implemented by the NFHS Game Officials Manual Committee regarding kickoff mechanics and coverage. As a result of the addition of the new NFHS football rule 9-3-8, the committee is emphasizing the new mechanics and coverage on the kickoff.
The rationale for the changes has to do with the addition of NFHS football rule 9-3-8 and the number of deep kicks that are occurring throughout the country. The Umpire and Line Judge have reversed their positions. This will allow for the Line Judge to be on the line during runbacks and allow him/her to make the calls on the line he/she would typically make during the other plays of the game. In addition, the positioning of the Line Judge has been moved back to the 10-yard line to help with kicks in the deep corner. The Referee has been positioned closer to the sideline to take care of deep kicks to his/her deep corner. The Linesman has been moved up to the receiver’s free-kick line to have a better look at the legality of blocks if an on-sides kick occurs. As in other situations, the crew should consider other factors such as wind conditions, skill of the kicker, etc., in adjusting their positions on the kickoff.

footballref1970 Wed Jun 13, 2012 03:53pm

Our association has used an old mechanic till this year. Under our old mechanics the umpire is with the kicker in the middle of the field. With the line judge having the kickers restraining line and the linesman having r's line and the back judge and referee deep with receivers. In the new mechanic is the umpire deep with referee and line judge and the back judge with K's line. Just wondering since this is new to me this year.

bcl1127 Wed Jun 13, 2012 04:23pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by footballref1970 (Post 845864)
Our association has used an old mechanic till this year. Under our old mechanics the umpire is with the kicker in the middle of the field. With the line judge having the kickers restraining line and the linesman having r's line and the back judge and referee deep with receivers. In the new mechanic is the umpire deep with referee and line judge and the back judge with K's line. Just wondering since this is new to me this year.

I think now the BJ has K's line at the 40, U and Linesman have the R line at the 50, the LJ is at the 10 on the sideline and R is at the goal line on the sideline.

Prior, the BJ has the K line at the 40, LJ has the 50, the Linesman was on the sideline at the 30, the U on the opposite sideline at the 20-10, and R was on the linesman's sideline at or near the goalline.

SO the U and LJ flip and the Linesman moves up 20 yards to the 50 with the new mechanic if I am reading it correctly.

Forksref Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:44am

Are we talking 5-man mechanics here?

bcl1127 Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forksref (Post 846996)
Are we talking 5-man mechanics here?

yes for the federation it is the 5-man mechanics. The new mechanic is also 5-man.

Forksref Thu Jul 05, 2012 09:10am

bcl has it right.

I am wondering why the Fed thinks the L has to be so far forward. Having 2 guys on the 50 in a 5-man crew doesn't seem to make sense.

IAUMP Thu Jul 05, 2012 09:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forksref (Post 848195)
bcl has it right.

I am wondering why the Fed thinks the L has to be so far forward. Having 2 guys on the 50 in a 5-man crew doesn't seem to make sense.

Actually it does, when you take into consideration the new rule on when K can legally block R. Since K can not initate contact with R until the ball has gone beyond R's restraining line, or K has a legal right to recover the kick. It would be too difficult for one official, to determine if/when the ball crossed the restraining line and when/if K initiated contact with R. I am the U in my crew and we have discussed if the ball comes my direction, I have the ball and the L has the blocks. It would be reversed if the ball goes to the L side of the field.

waltjp Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAUMP (Post 848199)
Actually it does, when you take into consideration the new rule on when K can legally block R. Since K can not initate contact with R until the ball has gone beyond R's restraining line, or K has a legal right to recover the kick. It would be too difficult for one official, to determine if/when the ball crossed the restraining line and when/if K initiated contact with R. I am the U in my crew and we have discussed if the ball comes my direction, I have the ball and the L has the blocks. It would be reversed if the ball goes to the L side of the field.

And there's the rub. How many unexpected on-sides kicks do you see in a year? I can remember entire seasons without seeing an attempted on-sides kick, let alone one that was unexpected. And when we expect it we put 2 guys on each restraining line.

I don't see the reasoning behind putting 2 officials on R's line in a 5-man game for something we'll be lucky to see once a season.

mbyron Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 848203)
I don't see the reasoning behind putting 2 officials on R's line in a 5-man game for something we'll be lucky to see once a season.

Agree. Ohio doesn't use this mechanic.

JRutledge Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 848203)
And there's the rub. How many unexpected on-sides kicks do you see in a year? I can remember entire seasons without seeing an attempted on-sides kick, let alone one that was unexpected. And when we expect it we put 2 guys on each restraining line.

I don't see the reasoning behind putting 2 officials on R's line in a 5-man game for something we'll be lucky to see once a season.

As a BJ I have clearly seen onside kicks, but not where we are surprised in any way.

I think coverage down field is more important. Then again maybe this will show some that 5 man crews are going to be flawed in our current game with the focus on safety and passing. I can only wish.

Peace

ODJ Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:40pm

At present, Illinois will only have the LJ and U switch positions. HL stays at the 30.

Reasoning for the LJ-U switch (as explained by NF and IHSA) is the LJ has more experience with forward progress during the game and is thus more accurate. To this I do not agree.

bcl1127 Fri Jul 06, 2012 09:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODJ (Post 848248)
At present, Illinois will only have the LJ and U switch positions. HL stays at the 30.

Reasoning for the LJ-U switch (as explained by NF and IHSA) is the LJ has more experience with forward progress during the game and is thus more accurate. To this I do not agree.

I am glad I will get to stay at the 30 and keep the coverage as it was. But moving the U seems odd. Cannot wait to see some of the U's chasing after a long return down their sideline...

Forksref Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 848212)
As a BJ I have clearly seen onside kicks, but not where we are surprised in any way.

I think coverage down field is more important. Then again maybe this will show some that 5 man crews are going to be flawed in our current game with the focus on safety and passing. I can only wish.

Peace

I agree 100%. No need for all the attention at the R line. I've never seen the attempted blocking by the K team and certainly don't expect any now with the new restriction. We'll talk about this in our local association as we normally don't get much direction from our state association.

bisonlj Thu Jul 12, 2012 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcl1127 (Post 848271)
I am glad I will get to stay at the 30 and keep the coverage as it was. But moving the U seems odd. Cannot wait to see some of the U's chasing after a long return down their sideline...

If you are doing it right the U should have a shorter run. The deep official should have forward progress to the K2 and the K/R official would work like a deep wing and get to the goal line on a break away. Using that mechanic the U should have gone from the R20 (or deeper as many do) to the K2 (78 yards). Now they only have to go from the 50 to the goal line (50 yards). If you did some handoff of the runner around mid-field then you weren't using a solid mechanic.

I think it makes complete sense for the L to work deep since it is most like his normal position on running plays. I always thought it was odd that as a U I normally worked in the middle but on free kicks I was now on the sideline and had to rule on forward progress.

bcl1127 Thu Jul 12, 2012 04:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 848879)
If you are doing it right the U should have a shorter run. The deep official should have forward progress to the K2 and the K/R official would work like a deep wing and get to the goal line on a break away. Using that mechanic the U should have gone from the R20 (or deeper as many do) to the K2 (78 yards). Now they only have to go from the 50 to the goal line (50 yards). If you did some handoff of the runner around mid-field then you weren't using a solid mechanic.

Well, our state has told us, and the official 5-man mechanics guide on our states website has the runners "handed off" to the BJ and in the old mechanic the LJ and the U and L clean up behind the play. So I am just going by what is done in our state and what I was taught from day one about kickoffs. If you don't think it is solid (personally I do and I guess our state does as well) I guess that is your opinion, but I was going by what we are taught.

bisonlj Mon Jul 16, 2012 05:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcl1127 (Post 848890)
Well, our state has told us, and the official 5-man mechanics guide on our states website has the runners "handed off" to the BJ and in the old mechanic the LJ and the U and L clean up behind the play. So I am just going by what is done in our state and what I was taught from day one about kickoffs. If you don't think it is solid (personally I do and I guess our state does as well) I guess that is your opinion, but I was going by what we are taught.

It's not a horrible option and you should definitely do what your state/assigner tells you to do. Once I learned how this is handled in 7-man mechanics (where 2 officials remain on the sideline as well) that made a lot more sense to me. If you pass it off to the other official, he's going to have to work in front of the runner rather than behind the runner (optimal in every other situation) in order to beat the runner to the goal line.

jTheUmp Fri Aug 17, 2012 07:45am

Last night I was at a training clinic done by the Minnesota State High School League.

The new kickoff mechanic came up in discussion, and our head rules interpreter called it "the stupidest thing he's ever read" and told us that we're going to continue to use the old mechanic in MN.

So, there you go.

SE Minnestoa Re Fri Aug 17, 2012 08:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 851991)
Last night I was at a training clinic done by the Minnesota State High School League.

The new kickoff mechanic came up in discussion, and our head rules interpreter called it "the stupidest thing he's ever read" and told us that we're going to continue to use the old mechanic in MN.

So, there you go.

The online meeting of the MSHSL says we are going to use the new mechanics. I have a game next Friday (Week zero) so my crew would be interested if we are using the new mechanic or not.

hawktalk Sat Aug 18, 2012 09:10pm

Fed's covert attempt to move to smaller, quicker, more agile umpires?

JRutledge Sun Aug 19, 2012 03:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by hawktalk (Post 852078)
Fed's covert attempt to move to smaller, quicker, more agile umpires?

Officials should be quick and agile anyway. And I honestly do not see why this is a big deal in the first place. The Umpire had to do something they were not doing in the old mechanic. And if they do their job they will be ahead of the play anyway.

Also there are very few plays that this will affect. I doubt any crew will have more than 1 or 2 where it is an issue during the season.

Peace

jchamp Tue Aug 21, 2012 05:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltjp (Post 848203)
And there's the rub. How many unexpected on-sides kicks do you see in a year? I can remember entire seasons without seeing an attempted on-sides kick, let alone one that was unexpected. And when we expect it we put 2 guys on each restraining line.

I don't see the reasoning behind putting 2 officials on R's line in a 5-man game for something we'll be lucky to see once a season.

It seems that it would be best for the WH to have this alignment as an option for the "expected" onside kick. Some schools (like Arkansas' Pulaski Academy) EXCLUSIVELY use the onside kick. Pulaski Academy Onside Kicks vs Cabot - Sept 9, 2011 - YouTube <-- These are all from one game, and PA was up 29-0 before their opponent made its first snap from scrimmage.

But discretion should be available to the WH who will be aware of the coaching styles, and can make an intelligent assessment of the game situation and what he needs to do. There is no need for a one-size-fits-all kickoff procedure.

Rich Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jchamp (Post 852264)
It seems that it would be best for the WH to have this alignment as an option for the "expected" onside kick. Some schools (like Arkansas' Pulaski Academy) EXCLUSIVELY use the onside kick. Pulaski Academy Onside Kicks vs Cabot - Sept 9, 2011 - YouTube <-- These are all from one game, and PA was up 29-0 before their opponent made its first snap from scrimmage.

But discretion should be available to the WH who will be aware of the coaching styles, and can make an intelligent assessment of the game situation and what he needs to do. There is no need for a one-size-fits-all kickoff procedure.

I actually thought that the reverse would happen -- that they'd move more officials back to the goal line so that all officials could work forward. Put the R, U, and L across the goal line and then adjust forward if kicks were short.

But we just do as we're told. This is the new mechanic and we'll be using it. And I'll have to cover more of the field.

BTW, the R in this mechanic is to start on the numbers (or 9-yard-mark) on the chain side -- not the sideline.

BktBallRef Wed Aug 22, 2012 05:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTheUmp (Post 851991)
Last night I was at a training clinic done by the Minnesota State High School League.

The new kickoff mechanic came up in discussion, and our head rules interpreter called it "the stupidest thing he's ever read" and told us that we're going to continue to use the old mechanic in MN.

So, there you go.

What's so stupid about it?

JRutledge Wed Aug 22, 2012 06:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 852316)
BTW, the R in this mechanic is to start on the numbers (or 9-yard-mark) on the chain side -- not the sideline.

Our state's mechanic wanted the R to start more on the sideline and adjust the LJ (used to be U) on the GL if ability of kicker or wind dictated that movement.

Peace

Forksref Sun Aug 26, 2012 08:19am

I was questioning the necessity of the L being at the 50 on the kickoff. After our first game Friday night, I am convinced that it is a mistake. We had enough kickoffs (49 pts scored) that my test sample is large enough to go with the result.

I found that we didn't have good coverage of the L's sideline in terms of getting accurate spots. The L couldn't get from the 50 to the end of the run in time to be with the play enough to move directly onto the field for the spot. As the R, I am trailing the runner and don't have the perfect spot either. There is a 50 yd gap in coverage when the ball is kicked and this makes it hard to get good coverage.

BTW, Minnesota has told all of its officials to NOT do the new NFHS mechanic and use the old coverage. When we do games in Minnesota this year we will be doing the old mechanic.

I think the FED has sought to correct a problem that is not there. In 25 yrs of doing football, I have never seen the kicking team block prior to the ball going 10 yds. Except in on-side kicks whereby we have 4 guys on those lines anyway. If it didn't happen in yrs past when it was legal, why should we expect it to happen now when it is not legal?

HLin NC Sun Aug 26, 2012 09:08am

I agree with you Forksref. I imagine someone with ties to the rule committee could clarify why they thought there was a need for this change. I don't see it myself.

Forksref Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:25pm

My game last Friday gave me a good number of looks at this new mechanic. (9 kickoffs)

The new rule prohibits blocking by K until the ball goes 10 yds. My decades of experience tells me that this hasn’t occurred and the new mechanic is trying to protect against something that doesn’t happen. If it didn’t happen when it was legal then why expect it to happen when it is not legal now? The problem is that the L is now 50 yds away from the R who must stay at the GL. In our game Friday we had trouble getting accurate spots on returns on the chain side because the L was so far away at the kick. As R, I have to trail the play and not get even with the runner. This is not a good mechanic and Minnesota has now told its officials NOT to use the mechanic. I agree.

If there is an obvious on-side kick situation, then we have 4 guys on those 2 lines anyway.

BigBaldGuy Thu Aug 30, 2012 09:40am

I stopped questioning a long time ago why the NFHS does things...just roll with the punches. My job is to follow their rules and mechanics.

ODJ Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:44am

The new blocking rule is meant to protect kids during an on-side or pooch kick. Too many injuries, and disadvantage, was caused by K plowing into R to clear out during the kick. A broad rule aimed at a specific problem.

HLin NC Mon Sep 03, 2012 06:03am

But therein lies the rub, ODJ. In my mechanic, the HL is at R's restraining line. In 14 years of varsity ball, I have never seen the "problem" that you allege. Most of the coaches I have worked with so far wonder where in the world the change came from and who felt it was necessary?

mbyron Mon Sep 03, 2012 07:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HLin NC (Post 853111)
But therein lies the rub, ODJ. In my mechanic, the HL is at R's restraining line. In 14 years of varsity ball, I have never seen the "problem" that you allege. Most of the coaches I have worked with so far wonder where in the world the change came from and who felt it was necessary?

Talk to the coach who OSK's on every free kick.

Forksref Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODJ (Post 853104)
The new blocking rule is meant to protect kids during an on-side or pooch kick. Too many injuries, and disadvantage, was caused by K plowing into R to clear out during the kick. A broad rule aimed at a specific problem.

I have no problem with the rule. It's the mechanic that makes no sense on 99% of kickoffs. When we see an obvious on-side kick situation we put 4 guys on the restraining lines anyway.

When you have a state association thinking the mechanic is stupid, it is time for the FED to reassess the mechanic.

JRutledge Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forksref (Post 853172)
I have no problem with the rule. It's the mechanic that makes no sense on 99% of kickoffs. When we see an obvious on-side kick situation we put 4 guys on the restraining lines anyway.

When you have a state association thinking the mechanic is stupid, it is time for the FED to reassess the mechanic.

Well considering that many states already take that position with other things, then not sure why this would make the FED do anything differently?

Peace


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